{ "media_type": "text", "post_content": "Any copywriters here who have published novels? I'm set to finish my 4th rewrite by end of year and hopefully shop it around soon. If I manage to get it published, you think I could translate it into a raise somehow?\n\nAlso, would love any general advice -- on querying, on finding beta readers, or craft books you'd recommend. Save the Cat is my plotting bible, and I also love Self-Editing for Fiction Writers. Any other recs?", "post_id": "5f3964ec3a4275002421336f", "reply_count": 10, "vote_count": 7, "bowl_id": "591a223804ff130016b983f4", "bowl_name": "Copywriters" }

Any copywriters here who have published novels? I'm set to finish my 4th rewrite by end of year and hopefully shop it around soon. If I manage to get it published, you think I could translate it into a raise somehow? Also, would love any general advice -- on querying, on finding beta readers, or craft books you'd recommend. Save the Cat is my plotting bible, and I also love Self-Editing for Fiction Writers. Any other recs?

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It’s SO hit and miss. I published a non-fiction book, and have profiled creative people (household names) for top-tier pubs. Reactions from CDs vary from being impressed, to flat-out calling it a waste of time because long form writing is not headline writing. The major agency I started out at as a social media writer refused to make me a full-fledged copywriter, claiming that I couldn’t prove I was a “real” writer — even after Condé Nast bylines, even after borrowing our CEO’s office to be interviewed by NPR about my book, even after having my comedy short go viral... both my then-boss and the then-CD blocked me for years, so I had to leave to be a copywriter elsewhere. On the positive side, people who do see the relevance end up asking a lot about that work in interviews, often more than my portfolio. They rarely see the actual book content; it’s mostly about the “how” of it being published, which in my case is a good story that shows off my initiative, vision, and willingness to work around the clock to get shit done. Tl;dr - The massive undertaking of writing a book might not equal its value in your portfolio. But it’ll be a case study in how you operate, so figure out how you’ll spin it in interviews. The value could be in the number of revisions or how you handle editor feedback.

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Sounds like tall poppy syndrome to me, Senior Copywriter 1. Thankfully you've moved beyond those people.

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What a wonderful accomplishment? That said, it won’t likely translate into a raise. These are two very different skill sets and all they care about (for the most part) are your CW skills. The secondary skills (like editing, handling criticism, time management,etc) are important and something you should highlight in creative reviews and new job interviews to feature your strengths. Hope you find a publisher.

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I’m a screenwriter not a novelist, but in my experience the advertising world gives exactly zero shits about any accolades outside of the advertising world UNLESS you personally become a brand that can be funneled back into said advertising world to make them more money (at which point you wouldn’t even need the copywriting job). So no. Regarding save the cat etc, the following is my opinion - but is essentially echoed by every successful screenwriter I’ve heard speak. You’ve got to ask yourself why nobody who ever wrote one of those books (McKee, Field, etc) every wrote anything anyone remotely cared about. Reverse-engineering stories and distributing that “wisdom” is a skillset that’s fundamentally unrelated to the skillset necessary to attack the blank page. In my experience, those books are helpful a la carte, and often accidentally. I may find one sentence which has a thought which I can apply in an unrelated way to something I’m working on, but to follow the book religiously would - to me at least - lead to disaster. The reason why is that writing is an act of self discovery. What resonates for you personally is at first mysterious - and through relentless trial and error you discover what is meaningful for you, and only then will you discover what order things go in. Listening to successful writers talk is the only thing I’ve ever found helpful. BAFTA has a great screenwriters lecture series. Bill Goldmans book. Stephen King’s book. Bird by Bird. Craig Mazin’s Scriptnotes episode on structure via Finding Nemo. Sorry for the rage I just get very upset by the influence those books have. Writing is a difficult and mysterious craft so it’s no wonder unsuccessful “gurus” fill the void of desperation with their advice. Then executives also use it to evaluate “success.” Aye caramba! And scene.

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That makes a lot of sense. I'm a pantser more than a plotter, which is why I picked up Jessica Brody's novel-writing version of the original STC, because I had difficulty with macro structure. I've actually had Bird by Bird sitting on my shelf and totally forgot about it! I'll check out Bill Goldman's book as well. Thanks for the input.

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Also can’t forget the Mad Men episode when the account guy gets a short story published and everyone else gets jealous.

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On Writing is great for inspiration for the next project or if you do get rejected from anywhere and need the confidence boost. I honestly think the best writing resources as just reading a lot of books in the genres you are interested in. As far as it translating to anything career wise, unsure. I’ve had bylines pubbed in big outlets and it seems to slightly help me getting interviews, but I haven’t seen it directly lead to a pay raise or anything like that.

Had 3 novels published. All lit. fiction. It proves you’re able to see projects through and can write for numerous media, but it’s highly unlikely it will have any bearing on your salary demands. If anything, it shows that you can make money on the side, so are less deserving of higher remuneration. Having articles published on a regular basis in the trades and nationally recognized publications makes a much bigger impact.

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