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Any female fish willing to give some advice?
Any late twenties fish here? 27/m/Manhattan
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I could relate with you, though I am a guy, I appreciate my female coworkers and we just vibe by talking about subjects we share similar interests. Just feel confident to approach the guys, it will click. First impression matters too.
i just left a company where my boss would only talk about her kids and family. We found small talk common ground on Marvel movies and tv shows. But the same could also apply to movies. Theres a lot of tv shows out and if you watch some of the popular one’s on streaming services this could be a good topic to lead with. Right now there is House of Dragon and Rings of Power and i’m sure Disney + will release additional Marvel and Star Wars content that i’ll lead with in the future.
Senior men love talking about themselves, big egos.
Boy, is it tough. I've networked with a few men who are outright sexists! Worst day of my life. Glad I found a few respectful ones out there.
Yep, we exist. I admire most women in this business because in many ways it’s doubly difficult. For me (a guy), I prefer working with women. All of my best bosses have been women. It would be a better world if we could universally lower testosterone levels.
And just to clarify, I’m straight, am married with kids, and like sports.
Just to clarify further, there are no “girls” who work in this business.
Oh yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. The men in the office always seem to meet up and hang out, then they are super quiet when a woman walks into the room. And it does feel like the male leadership team always shows favoritism or preference to the male team members
Yes this!!
Fr. I definitely have a hard time
Just for reference, younger ambitious men think about how they can get into this “boys club” that they aren’t a part of themselves (yet at least).
It comes with sneaky aggression. By that I mean the younger men fake interests in sports they do not like and activities they don’t care about in order to get on the executives good sides. Learn their favorite things, ask them about their kids, talk their interests and gradually they think of you as “one of us”
Lol i picked up sports gambling just to find some interest in sports. I dont wager much unless its a game im pumped about (jeez look at me being a fan).
I have found a new passion in hockey after a few games i attended, but it all started with throwing a few dollars on the money line.
Ive always enjoyed gambling even as a child playing poker with my older cousins. I never play with much, i just enjoy playing.
I try to find common topics, but I also have a hard time when they tend to split off and do things together without ever really inviting/asking me. I usually don’t know about these things until after they’ve occurred. I’m also the only female in my group
You just need to slowly work your way into their inner circles, not everything is always work work work either. Where work is related, try do specific things to impressive whomever so they take notice.
My office had a noticeable difference in routines between men and women, pay attention and do what the men do. Where a coworker will eat a salad alone in her office, I’ll eat lunch always with the men on their schedule, go buy lunch with them, make an extra coffee or pick them up iced coffee and follow what they want to do so now I am included in their boys club. I have since been offered to work on more interesting work & higher positions have backed me for increases and higher positions. It’s all about being strategic & you’ll probably even make some friends along the way.
It’s never just men being exclusive, that’s so sexist to act like women aren’t just as exclusive and clique-y. I have the opposite problem in my office with the men being more accepting and willing to bring new folks into the group and the women having a tight-knit group that’s almost impossible to join if you haven’t been here for more than 15 years.
The advice you are about to hear is invaluable and has worked like a charm for decades. I used a four pronged approach to this so called “boys club.”
1. When a male colleague begins to slowly confide in you with any agitation or slight grievances to someone who is making their life difficult in the workplace place, be the attentive listener they crave. A few gentle smiles, head nods and the words “I couldn’t agree with you more” go a long way.
2. I know absolutely zero about….going up to the mountains, sports, golf, football gambling, hunting, exotic arbitrage investment strategies etc…but I would use a few key buzzwords every now & again and this made them feel like we had common ground, similar interests.
3. Morning coffee is the Holy Grail of establishing trust with the male counterpart.
4. Going to lunch. For whatever reason men absolutely LOVE having a woman in the workplace initiate “lunch plans” with them. Be the one to initiate the calendar invite, the instant messaging requests etc….the direct face to face office or hallway interaction that simply says, “ lunch today at 12:15.” You will be amazed at the amount of success these simple strategies will reap.
Rising Star
As a man, this is spot on. We try not to initiate the lunch or coffee 1:1’s because a lot of men are nervous today about optics that we maybe hitting on them. So instead, it’s much better and you will get 99.99% success result of men saying yes to coffee or lunch. It’s the truth, I’m saying how it is and what the men today are thinking.
Also, middle age men in the office - they are like the lonely group. They don’t fit in with the young guys and there are less peers in there office with them. Ask them for coffee or lunch, they never say no - esp to a woman. A younger woman just gives us energy we are not use too.. so it can make their day - keep it professional.
Also #1. This works in marriages and relationships as well 😂
Confidence and tailoring to your audience. Don’t get me wrong there are lots of great men in the finance industry but there are also scummy ones. Quickly realized that if you’re an attractive female it can get you into a conversation faster but it can also turn to being a pass at you or degrading your capabilities. Confidence overrules everything and just remember even if a few of them don’t treat you well you need to move on (and hope they’re boomers so they’re out of the workforce soon). I hate that I do this personally but a big part of it for me is about being “fake” with them.
Kick their ass on the golf course.
As a gay man (not as bro-y I can see the perspective and understand / relate) some of my tips - golf is always a way to help steer conversations (especially if you’re really good!) other tips - follow common sports (by their season), humor always helps breaks convos, start with the more Inclusive male colleagues and slowly make ur way into the friend group
I've given up on trying to push my way into their clique and have resorted to letting them come to me naturally. A good few started striking up a conversation with me recently and I'm thankful they did because it was starting to get boring for me in the office. Sometimes acting indifferent can help you hahaha
Find a way in, there’s always a way.
What about gluten-free brownies or cookies? I've never had coworkers turn them down and most say they taste better than the gluteny versions.
Can definitely take more time and effort if you’re not already into the things they are. Try to find common interests. Or try to find out what interests them and be open to learning about whatever hobby or interest they have.
Pro
Men will always be men. Even when you hit the highest levels, they will always have a boys club. I mean isn’t that what fraternities are for? Also, it’s human nature for men to hunt in packs so by nature they will find their group of guys to do “guy stuff” like bond over sports, women, etc (trying to get in a way of male bonding isn’t going to get you in the club).
I’m just saying how it is but men do need to make a conscious effort how women feel about this. Those who can integrate wand be more open will be successful.
just tell them you know Jordan Belfort
I’ve had a lot of women colleagues in the past. From my experience, majority of them have been very reserved. It was very difficult for me to sense emotion and did not want to upset them by speaking to them. I would always say hello and a few of them started talking to me and we developed a great friendship so much so that I started having lunch with them every couple of weeks. Be friendly, maybe even initiate the convo!
These are great comments and suggestions. I think all the above comments are also dependent on industry and office culture. As a senior female working for a long time in the heavily male dominated field of real estate development I’ve had success by being bold and confident in my role. I can joke around and get people out for say golf or a drink or whatever. But at the end of the day there are always “clicks” including the good-old boys clubs and that won’t change. But, there’s always ways to be noticed and get a seat at the table of advancement. I think everyone’s situation is unique.
Pro
The magic happens outside the office. In the office, you have to play the game and ensure you are a top performer. Outside the office, you have to participate in activities theta enhances your personal brand for leadership opportunities like serving on a board of a nonprofit where yours upper peers spend their time. In addition, have a partner or spouse is an advantage as you can potentially get invited to private dinners/events with their partner/spouse. This is where the magic happens.