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As a white passing immigrant who, as a child, stood in line for free food with my mom, lived in Section 8 housing, wore free bin cloths from the local church and grew up on food stamps in condemned housing: No. Classism is separate from Racism.
I was still treated better by teachers, random people, store clerks, etc. than my Black friends that I grew up with. Despite their parents and grandparents literally fighting for this country in the Korean, Vietnam and world wars, and their distant ancestors literally building this country through their blood, sweat and tears, I, someone who had no ancestors in this country was always treated better.
Racism exists. Classism exists. Some people suffer from one, some, tragically from both.
Pro
OMG, yes, I'm white passing indigenous woman. Sure classism exists, and I had a lot of things going against me growing up, but discrimination due my appearance was not one of those things.
I will never be able to fully understand racism to the depth of others, because even though I'm BIPOC, you wouldn't know it unless I told you.
And no, it's not everyone's job to teach me or others, but it is MY job to learn from anyone with the first person experience who is willing to teach.
Chief
OP- It sounds like you’re more bothered by a post that labeled moderates/republicans as racist than solving for racism. If you want to actually have a discussion on racism and relation to classism, perhaps do some research and educate yourself on these topics then come back with some insightful information to have a productive discussion? On a separate note, Black people don’t have to take on the burden to educate you/us. We need to be accountable, take responsibility and initiative to read, research and educate beyond high level generic ‘opinions’.
Conversation Starter
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
BW here-if it is fueled by classism, it should have never existed for me as someone who grew up in middle class suburbs, but it did.
It should have gotten better in my stint at a FAANG, but it got worse. It should disappeared when I became an M7 MBA, but it hasn’t, and my MBB salary should allow me to buy my way out of it, but it doesn’t.
Please read up on black maternal mortality. You’ll find that highly educated and high income black women are more likely to die in childbirth than their white peers.
Read the study that was published (I believe in the NYT) indicating that middle class black children were more likely to fall back into poverty than their other middle class peers, and come back to me.
So SC2-Are you a person of color?
I’d really challenge your perspective that the issues lower income black people face would be resolved by fixing classism.
Here’s why, Botham Jean, Atatiana Jefferson, and Sandra Bland were all college educated black people who died in police interactions. In several of those cases, there was no cause for those police interactions to have happened. This is the same problem that our low income brothers and sisters face.
Dr. Charniece Wallace, MD, died in childbirth despite having insurance and a medical degree.
So, while yes, it is true that my low income brothers and sisters are more likely to suffer food insecurity, housing instability, and are more likely to face over policing in a daily basis, even when they get this stuff, the data shows they aren’t safe because of the color or their skin.
If we address racism, we will be better equipped to address classism. Here’s why, when getting an education and being an upstanding citizen doesn’t drastically improve your health and safety outcomes, it is demoralizing and takes away the inspiration to make the effort to do the things that allow for class mobility (like college).
Pro
Black woman who was moved to a rural mountain farm at the age of 14 (year 2000).
Only not white person in my school. Skinhead chick harassed me for weeks with “I’m going to kill you n*gger” threats. School administration pulled ME into the office to say they would speak to her about her language but that if i defended myself in any sort of fight, I would face disciplinary action. ME. The good student who played two varsity sports while working 20-40h a week.
Went home to a white mom who would tell me it was a shame i got my biological father black nose or my ethnic hair... “if it weren’t for those, you’d be so pretty!”
Same mom would say things like:
“thank god I’m raising one of the good ones!”
“Don’t date black men. We got so lucky you inherited green eyes... don’t mess up our gene pool by bringing brown eyes into the family!”
“I hate dealing with the north eastern blacks. It’s all sassy sheniquas. I like the blacks in the south... they always seems so happy to serve you when they wait on you in the stores.”
Those are just the top hits. I could go on with just the *racism* I experienced in my own home. Which was nothing compared to the outright dangerous situations i was in when friends in my white town would have their parents discover a black person in their home. Snuck out a lot of back doors in the middle of the night...
When you experience racism you aren’t really performing some sort of sociological study. You’re usually just trying to exit the situation peacefully. So it doesn’t really matter what “fuels” it. Treating it like some high-brow study *feels* like a way to attempt to simplify it and pretend it doesn’t exist.
Wow, thank you for sharing
I’m Latina and the daughter of immigrants. Through hard work and grit my parents have moved up to the “upper middle class”. My father is a darker skin Latino with an accent, no matter how much money he makes he still faces discrimination. Till this day it never ceases to amaze me how differently luxury store associates treat my dad vs how they treat my mom and I (lighter skin latinas). No matter how much money my dad makes that won’t stop others from discriminating against him and from him getting pulled over by cops to check if he has US citizenship. I’ve also heard various stories of wealthy black men getting pulled over by cops simply because they had a nice car. Racism and classism are often intertwined, but they are separate issues - and should be treated as such.
Thank you for highlighting the varying degrees of racism experienced within the Latinx community. It’s so real and not talked about enough.
I think they’re closely intertwined, though not exactly the same. Classism certainly fuels and is fueled by racism in a sort of never ending cycle. But there is also just straight up hate against POC for no reason other than the color of their skin. In all of that is tangled up bias which prevents bright and amazing POC from being hired into good paying jobs, which leads to greater income inequality, education gaps, etc that require resolutions at every level, top down and bottom up, to tackle effectively
Rising Star
“Fiscally conservative” doesn’t equate to “the markets will solve everything.” What it means is that “government doesn’t solve everything.” Throwing more and more borrowed money at problems like poverty, health care, housing equity, educational opportunity, etc. hasn’t worked. Being a true fiscal conservative means that you’re considering the cost, the process, and your desired outcomes, and getting to those desired outcomes in the most fiscally responsible way, whether that means using the power of government to force change, or letting market forces do some of the work via smart, targeted regulation that benefits more people than it disadvantages.
Where the Libertarians come into the argument is that they’re really the free-market hawks - they want to let the markets alone decide who rises & who falls. That’s both unrealistic and cruel.
People who are socially liberal and fiscally conservative tend to be agnostic about or supportive of gay marriage, reproductive choice, criminal-justice reform, and other “social” issues - but they want to address these issues in a fiscally responsible way - often by increasing taxes on corporations and the exceedingly wealthy, by fully funding reproductive health programs, to reduce or limit increases in defense spending, etc. It’s about acknowledging that our country’s spending is out of control but there are issues we must address, so let’s find a way to do that responsibly.
They definitely fuel each other. As an example, it wasn't so long ago that it was legal to deny home loans to Black families that met income thresholds. And schools were only technically de-segregated a couple generations ago. Not to mention, all the de facto (vs de juris) segregation and racism.
But it's a good question and I'd really recommend reading some books on the subject!
The New Jim Crow is fantastic, as is The Color of Law and So You Want to Talk About Race
Here's a decent list: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.wbur.org/artery/2020/06/17/reading-list-on-race-for-allies
Be more skeptical of an opinion piece than vetted journalism...
Chief
Does BW mean black women? If so, we aren’t the only group that faces racism. I’m interested to know why we should correct you...?
Yes, I mentioned Black women specifically as it was relevant to the political discussions that have been occurring lately in the country. But you are completely right and I should have revised my language to be inclusive of all the POC groups that this applies to.
My intention was acknowledge that I cannot know the experiences of POC and that I welcome anyone that does identify with these experiences to call me out on being off base here if I’m speaking nonsense. At the end of the day, my understanding of being anti-racist includes being anti-classist.
As a black woman I would agree that racism does not have a definition everyone is on the same page about. But thats not what your statement is here.
Pro
Echoing some comments here, didn't racism cause a lot of classism? Early racist policies were a major contributor to this. Generational wealth has some obvious benefits, which because of those policies put people of color behind in terms of housing, education, etc. So just looking at today as if all is equal isn't exactly the best approach I think.
I'm an immigrant, brown woman. But that's just my understanding/thoughts on this topic.
At the extreme, racism is a cause of slavery as racism says certain people are less “human” than others. So it’s not outrageous to say racism caused classism which says certain people are less deserving than others.
So root cause is still racism.
There’s a book on Oprah’s list called Caste to read more about the intersectionality of racism, classism, and colorism
Just started reading this yesterday and love it so far.
You can be a rich Black person and still be treated like the help. Just ask Oprah.
Exactly! A black person can have many degrees and qualifications, but still be perceived as less than! Racism cuts across all classes of black people. It’s not just poor and/or uneducated black people that experience racism. Once a black partner at my firm stated that she fears for hers sons life every single day, because he’s tall, athletic, and like to wear hoodies. She lives in one of the most prestigious and predominately white neighborhoods in the DC area. She said that she has to talk to her son and warn him to be cautious. So, no it’s not just class. As a middle-class African American woman considering having children soon, I often think about how I will have to protect my children. Racism doesn’t just affect George Floyds. Think about your coworkers in Corporate America! Consider the number of POC in leadership. Those that achieve great height probably went through so much.
Classism and racism are inextricably linked in a capitalist system that was founded on and enabled by the most widespread human trafficking project in human history.
As a BW who was grew up upper-middle class, I can say without a doubt that racism and classism are two separate things, especially in the US. There are some countries where you could potentially make the argument that they’re one and the same or at least at times interchangeable, but the US and the deep roots of its racial issues (slavery) is not one of them
Rising Star
Was listening to an interview with this author the other day. there's separate, but there's a dynamic between them that's pretty relevant.
Essentially, things that were accepted to be good for society in the 1950s suddenly became considered bad when they were extended to minorities during the civil rights era.
The author starts with idea of the public pool, and have some communities close their pool rather than integrate.
The author makes the case that this unwillingness to extend things for the public good stems in part from the commingling of wealthism and racism.
Don't have time to get into it here, but it's really worth a read.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Sum_of_Us.html?id=6m7cDwAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description
I saw a lot of back and forth on the moderates post, which I guess is spurning mine. I think it’s generally understood that the Republican Party has its...uh...fair share of racists. But tbh, the Democrats have plenty as well. It’s usually a more subtle type, but I would not say “anti-racist” is the default there (picturing the WASPy, NIMBY people here).
MLK was really quite socialist and did plenty of preaching on the perils of classism. I’m not saying becoming a socialist society would “solve” racism, just curious to hear others thoughts.
OP, I do want to say I think you facilitated this conversation very well! It can be a tough topic to navigate, so it's great that you're seeking to understand and reading some on your own too
Thank you for the kind words.
As I said in response to Ops Leader’s comment, I do struggle with what is appropriate to discuss. Don’t want to read and do my own research and then bounce that info around in the echo chamber of my own brain. Don’t want to have these discussions strictly with other white people in THAT echo chamber. But also don’t want to offend or trigger any POC who may be overwhelmed by feeling like they have to constantly explain their realities. The best I can do is to keep learning and keep listening. :)
I have also been struggling for a while with the ways I myself support capitalism/classism simply by being in the consulting field, which has historically been a restrictive/hostile environment for POC. But that’s a problem I do kind of have to work through on my own.
IT’S NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. 🤦🏽♀️ Race and Class are inextricably linked because slavery is exploitation is capitalism is white supremacy.
BCG1 just read the context. Modern capitalism. Global racism. The capitalism we have today and the racism we have today are like 🤞🏾
Stripping context and citing history that hasn’t been relevant for the past 400 years is weird. Again, read more...
Rising Star
Capitalism is rooted in racism. Yes classism is a real issue however Capitalism first emerged as a world system through the anti-black racism generated by the transatlantic slave trade, and it has depended on racism to ensure its perpetration and reproduction ever since.
It’s really a shame the hatred lower class anti-black folks have for black people. They should be worried about their poverty and the elitist system we live in.
However the danger of a single story and bias in this world prevents that.
Rising Star
What was it that LBJ said? “If you can convince the lowest-class white person that they are ‘better’ than any black person, you can get them on your side.” (Not a direct quote, but close...). This is the root of the modern “conservative/Republican” party we have now, even though LBJ was a Democrat.
It’s the basis for why white Republicans are generally less-educated than white Democrats, and why they consistently vote against their own economic interests. That racist mindset is deeply entwined in the classist POV that fuels Republican anger.
Racism isn’t only between Whites and Blacks!!
Enthusiast
Colorism existed in societies, amongst those of the same ethnicity, even before white imperialism touched those areas - for example in Asian countries. People have been using slight differences in the way people sound and look to create a hierarchy in whatever group they were in for thousands of years. Colorism is something each ethnicity has to grapple with - however racism in America is very acutely anti black and has more to do with the moral debt that has been incurred over the hundreds of years of wrongdoing IMO