Cravath to 221?

like
Posting as :
works at
You are currently posting as works at
Highlighted IconHIGHLIGHTED

The 190 to 221 would be crazy big of a jump. I doubt an increase is coming but if it is, I’d be smaller between 10-20k more. Either way these increases aren’t sustainable for long. We’ve gone from 160-190 in 4 years (not including two years of special bonuses on top of basic bonus structure). The bill always comes due!

likesmart

No I get it! I work terrible hours! I’m just saying it’s not sustainable because part of the reason why hours have gotten so bad is because of cost pressure and firm efforts to justify rates. I’ll take another 20k happily cuz not sure I can work more hours but still, the partners aren’t gunna take a long term hit to their pocketbooks. They get their money back somehow!

like

We’re still trying to persuade my (AmLaw 20) firm that associates who aren’t in NYC deserve market bonus at 2000 hours. Plus, based on my experience from the last round of salary increases, the people saying more money means more hours are correct.

A7, it’s also way more expensive for firms to operate in NY than in Houston or Charlotte, and biglaw “market” rates for NY are way above market nearly every place else. That means it’s both more challenging and more profitable to operate in markets outside NY. By any rational analysis people outside NY should be paid more, apples to apples, than people in NY. But that argument will fall on deaf ears if your firm is based in NY, DC, or SF and you work in a secondary market. I gave up on it maybe 15 years into a 23 year career in secondary market offices of a coastal V25.

Recent IconRecent

The juniors are also the ones whose quality of life gets even worse (versus more senior people) when there’s salary increases. I don’t have a problem with associate salaries going the moon but if you look back historically, hour expectations have tended to go up pretty consistently with salary increases. I wouldn’t personally trade another few hundred hours of my life for 20 grand.

like

It’s worth noting that inflation means salaries have to go up nominally just to remain the same in real terms. The same cannot be said for hours.

like

OP, respectfully, have you considered the consequences of that move?

likefunny

A13, we are in violent agreement on all but one of your points. In particular, at some point I think most of the firms that have blindly hewed to the Cravath scale will peel off. It’ll be a process that starts with a trickle, which more and more firms will follow. Eventually I think you’ll see a handful of exceptionally profitable NYC firms continue following Cravath, and a large group that settles into a separate scale that’s more rationally related to those firms’ economic realities. As far as I’m concerned that can’t happen fast enough. As you note, the longer that many firms continue to hang on, the more damage they will do to their cultures and associates. I was actually happy to see the rumor that started this string, because a 16% increase in 1st year pay would force many firms to peel off from the Cravath scale. The place we don’t agree is that partner pay is astronomically high. Certainly some partners make huge bank. But at most firms they are a small minority. At most V50 firms there are quite a few partners who make less than some associates, particularly when taking into consideration the reality that many of those firms don’t subsidize significant expenses and also require substantial capital contributions. Most partners don’t make twice the comp paid to senior associates. None of this is to say partners aren’t well paid. They are well paid for a job that’s very demanding. But having talked to a lot of associates about these issues it’s my impression that most vastly over estimate what most partners earn.

Here I am secretly hoping that Milbank catches wind of this thread and yolos salaries for everyone.

likefunny

Is there chatter that this is happening?

like

This

To the moon

like

Base goes BRRR

Disagree with the argument that hours expectations increase with biglaw salary increases. You will be expected to work as much as you are willing to give the firm regardless of pay at 190 or 210.

like

There’s plenty of ways firms increase hourly expectations without you even knowing it. The reality is that most people in large firms aren’t working 2500 per hour. At my firm (a v10) the average firm wide for the past 10 years is around 1850 hours (some groups are far above that and others are below). Partners have typically viewed someone as busy (not crazy but not needing more work) at around 175 hours per month. No one gives you a hard time if you’re somewhere near that. That can change easily to 190 per month. They can hire fewer people, but keep the same types of overall work loads. They can create informal bonus requirements where there currently are none. And many other things. Firms try to maximize profits and they aren’t going to increase their expenses by tens of millions per year (eating several hundred thousand from their PPP) without figuring out a corresponding way to hedge that expense (either on the revenue or expense side). They only have so many levers to pull and none of those levers makes associates’ lives better.

likesmart

Is this the next pump and dump after AMC and GME? Pump to 221k and dump a lot of attorneys from their job to make up for it?

like

I’m all for it

Would be nice, but I doubt it.

like

A12, I’m curious about the impact of your last raise on your hours. Would you mind sharing the amounts of the pay increase and the hours increase? Also curious whether in retrospect the latter was worth the former.

like

@TL1, only because we’re in the middle of a pandemic now and I’d be working all the time anyway. Might as well get paid! But honestly? I’d rather not do this new push to 221. Don’t want the added hours or responsibility that will come with it.

like

reminder that salaries adjusted for inflation/cost of living are lower now at the 190 scale than they were when the 160 scale started

like

Following...

What does this mean exactly? 🤔

Why the 1? Why not just 220?

Because it’s 2021.

likefunny

When does Cravath set salaries for the next year? My firm does it at a different time than most, so sometimes it’s a little confusing to compare.

Additional Posts

Does any of your firm require you to have 45 billable hours per week in June or July?

like

Bain fish: how much should I expect to travel if I'm in the Chicago market? I know there is a local staffing model but not sure how that plays out in practice.

like

Hi fishbowl! I am looking for senior designers (5-7 year experience ) that has BTL shopper marketing experience, alc experience a plus. Must be able to concept national retailer specific programs. Can developing key visuals, p.o.s. Based in nyc, but remote for now. Please dm me with your book!

like

Anybody know the difference between management v. operations consulting in the fed-gov space? Which one is more project based as opposed to staff-aug?

like

How many classrooms have you had in your career?

likehelpful

Any Sloan R1 candidates who got waitlisted without interview heard back yet?

like

Anyone have experience with Sterling Background Checks? How long did it take? Trying to figure out when to put in my two weeks. No international work experience but have a couple states I’ve worked in and an internship that didn’t have a W2

like

I have been searching for job from quite a long time and all I have seeing HR/Panels asking for 1. Number of implementation projects done. 2. Work experience on S4 Hana. And if I don't have atleast any one of these, I will not be considered. Is it really that important ? Being joined as a fresher - Is it really something that I can decide whether to be in support or implementation project ? Is upgrading of ECC to S4 Hana in my hands ? And the difference is really that vast ?

like

Anyone know of companies hiring in the Greenville, SC area?

like

In my early thirties, still an Engagement Manager only making $355k basic, plus benefits and guarenteed minimum bonus of $100k. What did I do wrong? #Satire #DoesAnyoneElseFeelThisTypeOfDiscussionHappensWayToMuchHere? #WhyDoSoManyPeepsNeedValidation? Not trying to put people down, but seems there are far too many people on the hamster wheel just churning and in need of validation. Any thoughts? Am I off base?

likefunny

Anyone make the jump from small consulting firm to big 4? Any regrets in doing so?

like

Manager with specialized experience (sector specific DDs and growth strategy) looking to move to MBB. Do you recommend reaching out to a 3rd party recruiter, MBB recruiter or reaching out to partners/practice leadership?

like

Hey, anyone have experience with boutique turnaround advisory consulting shops? (E.g., Getzler Heinrich, Novo Advisors, among others) How does pay look versus larger RX (Alice, A&M) Versus MBB?

likesmart

I love this group. For those that receive company equity as part of their comp, what’s your strategy? Do you immediately sell it all and put the cash into index funds?

like

Where do we go to see what our billable hours goals are? Thanks!

like

Is it wrong to not want a promotion? Ive been told I’m on track for one soon but I still have sooo much to learn at this level and I don’t feel ready to move up. I am, in fact, terrified of the next step and the responsibilities that come with it. Has anyone turned down a promotion and regretted it? Been glad about it?

like

Have anyone done contracting negotiations before? I've interviewed for co A & B and co A extended an offer today. The offer does not meet my current salary. Co B's interview structure is 3 rounds and I've finished my 2nd round today. The recruiter mentioned that since I am a contractor my current salary is incomparable as they will provide benefits, etc. Is this true? I have 2 yrs of contracting HR exp from fortunate 500 co’s & OMW to get my SHRM-CP. Appreciate your advice in advance.

like

Best office chair? And other WFH splurges. Looks like we’ll be stuck working from home for a while. What are some worthwhile splurges to make WFH more enjoyable?

like

My MD makes joke yet subtle jab about my expenses. My reply: wait does this mean I can’t book Westin anymore?

likefunny

Any good ideas for teaching students about coins? Our first graders have been struggling to master lessons about money.

like

New to Fishbowl?

Download the Fishbowl app to
unlock all discussions on Fishbowl.
Download Fishbowl to see what others are saying
That was just a preview…
Sign Up to see all discussions
  • Discover what it’s like to work at companies from real professionals
  • Get candid advice from people in your field in a safe space
  • Chat and network with other professionals in your field
Sign up in seconds to unlock all discussions on Fishbowl.

Already a user?
Login here

Share

Embed this post

Copy and paste embed code on your site

Preview

Download the Fishbowl app

Get realtime notifications and see
what's happening in your industry
from the palm of your hand.