Does anyone have advice for a baby lawyer who didn’t go to a rich PWI on fitting in to a corporate team made up of people who went to rich PWI? I’m friendly enough and we get along but I want to build deeper relationships but my coworkers seem to have trouble relating to me as I don’t drink wine and play squash/golf/tennis on the weekend.

likeuplifting
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Same boat here. Added bonus of being the only woman of color on my team of white dudes. I just handle it by asking them a lot of questions, the more they open up, the greater the chance of finding some common ground. I have also adopted the sense of humor of a preteen white boy, which I think has disarmed the associates to some degree, but that approach is hit or miss depending on the crowd and can come off as inauthentic (I just happen to like crappy adult swim TV lol). Big message is just be yourself, do great work, and give it time.

likefunny

We had Friday drinks and I had a good chat about pets and dating with one of the SAs. I know that having a good conversation doesn’t trump good work but it was nice to have a little foundation. Best of luck to you and I’m so relieved to hear I’m not the only one.

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I had never heard of “PWI” before today. I guess probably because I’m white. (Although I generally follow the discourse and am usually up on the lingo.)

Anyway, do you really want to “fit in?” Just to give another perspective here, my personal opinion, based on my own experience, would be to keep an eye out for opportunities to join another team instead. I grew up in a place where the vast majority of kids went to crappy state schools (if to college at all). Maybe one person per year would make it to a lesser Ivy, and it wasn’t me. You were rich if you had ever taken an international flight. Then I went to a T6 and a V10, where I was (in both places) surrounded by people who’d gone to expensive private high schools and colleges (or extremely competitive public ones), whose families owned multiple properties, whose parents were lawyers or government officials or corporate whatevers, who already held stocks and thought nothing of flying to Europe for the weekend, etc. Even the ones who had originally come from a place and background more similar to my own had clearly been shaped by their exposure to and affiliation with the others through prior schooling.

I later went to different firms, for other reasons, and found people I aligned with better. In hindsight it became clear to me that I was never truly going to fit in with the other set and would always be an outsider to some degree. Any attempt to “catch up” would likely be futile and desperate, since it was too late and I lacked the resources, and would also have been simply inauthentic. We could be cordial work colleagues, certainly, but that’s about it. At the same time, attempting to fit in threatened to take me away from my own roots and leave me trapped alone in a sort of purgatory, too fancy for the people back home but struggling to keep up with the new class to which I’d “won” entry.

TLDR: imo it’s not worth it, don’t worry about it, just do your job, stay true to yourself, and foster genuine connections.

likehelpfulupliftingsmart

I hear you. It’s tough, there’s no way around that, especially when you’re thrown in with a group you don’t have any apparent overlap with. Do you have any interest in watching any of the sports? It can be fun — I randomly happened to follow a team one year and then by chance had an interview with a partner who was a big fan of that team (had pictures in his office), so you never know what will work out. Do you all watch any of the same shows, listen to any of the same music? Are you into any sort of restaurant or dining scene, or theater, or travel? Books? Anybody up for a happy hour or trivia night? Anybody have any geographical background similarities?

If you want to make the effort, you’ve really got to just throw it all out there somehow and see what sticks.

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So I’m white and went to an T14 for law school but I did come from a working class family so probably experienced some, but not all, that you’re going through.

First, stop viewing yourself as an outsider, you deserve to be there as much as any of them.

Second, you have a lot more in common with them than you think. One of my really good friends in law school comes from a family where he probably didn’t even need to work if he didn’t want to, but we still have a great time together talking about the things we both go through (work, school, etc.). So have some conversations and see what you have in common with them, you’ll be surprised how much you have.

Third, try to be yourself as much as possible. Sure I had to learn a few things like how to hold a wine glass and other nonsense but trying to pretend to be someone you’re not can be so exhausting and unfulfilling. I understand as a PoC this might be more difficult as law firms unfortunately still have some growing to do on the inclusion front, but we’re all unique and that’s important.

likehelpful

Thanks, I really appreciate that. I also don’t want to lose myself. I noticed that I was already looking at myself like an outsider so I wanted to stop that asap. If you have any more tips I’m all ears 😊

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What is PWI? Must be the richness in me not knowing these earthly acronyms.

likefunny

It’s a school filled with a bunch of Chads?

This may be difficult to hear but it is your job to adapt.

likehelpful

I agree - you won’t be able to change who you are or your experiences. I am not a POC but I grew up poor af on a farm. But the culture of my firm embraces that. I would suggest considering a different firm at some point - not everyone who grew up with a spoon in their mouth excludes or “others” those with different experiences. Similarly, I appreciate the different backgrounds of my colleagues and learn from them. If they played squash for example and I wanted to learn I know they would take me out for some sessions and teach me. That’s the benefit of working with diverse groups of people IMO. Good luck - I know it can be harder as a POC, and I don’t mean to undermine any challenges in that regard. Another helpful thing could be to connect with others who do share your experience, at your own or other firms, to share other ideas.

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This got deep. My advice is simple. Don’t be friends with lawyers. Those people usually suck.

likefunny

So am I.

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Start by never referring to yourself as a “baby lawyer” again lol

likefunny

Oh no haha

Late here, but wanted to chime in since I was extremely disappointed by the the adapt and assimilate advice above.

1. You don’t have to assimilate to do good work, and if that’s inhibiting your ability to get work, you NEED to leave ASAP. There are hundreds of firms that pay market (whatever the hell that is today) or close to it, and will value your EXPERIENCE and SKILLS. Be “authentic”, because you only get to do this once and might as well enjoy your journey.

2. In terms of extracurriculars and adapting, I’ll at least try to make an effort if it’s something I have a cursory level of interest in, but just be upfront about your skill level and mention you’ve been interested but never really had the time to hone in the craft. You want to be clear you’re accepting the invite, because I generally don’t turn down a social invite unless the objection is moral or you have a personal conflict. PS, please don’t feel obligated to drink - a suggestion is to do mocktails when out. If your firm is doing outings, they’re probably at nice places that can whip up something better than a shirley temple.

3. Corporate law is dominated by people with that rich PWI background, and likely will be for a some time (DEI efforts are not effective at short-term change). If you’re going to succeed, you at least have to be comfortable working with people you have not much in common with, but again, you don’t have to assimilate. I’ve found those differences to be interesting, as long as they’re not making the work environment uncomfortable. When that difference becomes a problem, LEAVE. For example, I’ve straight up been told by partners at my previous firm that they’d rather lose deals from bigger clients than make an effort to increase their diversity. I lateraled to a firm that did more of those bigger deals and haven’t looked back.

likeuplifting

Probably late but I second this, especially #1 and #3. My first firm was like #1, and I was constantly picked/mocked on. Moved to a new place, and the change was almost instant.

#3 is also true. I do find that as I get more senior, I get more comfortable with the work/substance and more used to the vibes around me. So, it feels much more natural even if I don’t share common interests outside of work. At some point, my partner and clients started asking about my outside interest, and I am never shy from sharing my cultural/ethnic experiences and activities.

Lastly, I know this is not PC and I probably will get yelled at, but do not assume someone will understand you just because they are minorities, and don’t write someone off just because they are PWI. I can’t tell you how many times people of the same ethnicity as mine were hostile towards me or made deteriorating comments on other minorities. However, two of the best advocates and mentors I’ve had are both white; one is an old white male.

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Just be your professional self. Those that want to get to know you will talk to you, about you. Those that don’t want to get to know you will have surface conversation. Just use those folks for whatever insight or knowledge they have.

likehelpful

Thank you

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Minority and first generation in almost everything here, my suggestion is to try and find something in common with them. It can be the most basic thing like food or innocent like movies, etc. Not everything has to be an intellectual feast or revolve around upper class sports, etc. Plus, there are minorities in almost every sport so they will almost certainly find some connection that way. I am now inhouse in the fund industry, and whenever I meet someone new I scan their office to find some connection or just talk about food or sports. Be a normal person (I know that sounds weird) and invite them to grab a bite or coffee some day. You'd be surprised how much more in common you have than you imagined. If you approach things like that, you'll often connect on something. With that being said, if you lateral or go to another dept definitely get a feel for the work culture. I hated almost every day of my Biglaw life and often felt a bit abandoned going through the same feelings as you. I lateralled to another bigfirm and it was one of my most enjoyable employers -- a dept full of what ppl often call WASPs. I was surprised.

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I went to an HBCU for undergrad and law school and I’m the only black person in my whole practice group at my current firm as I was at my previous firm and honestly I don’t try to “fit in”. Im proud of my experiences. I grew up in an all black suburb, both parents are doctors who went to HBCUs, my experience is different but it’s not inferior and usually people accept that. (If they haven’t excepted it they haven’t said anything to me about it). I also find that colleagues are curious, they want to know more about my culture and neighborhood, I showed FAMUs marching band to a partner at my firm once and he went down a rabbit whole of bands on YouTube 🤣🤣. I think the ultimate advice here is that you’re okay kid, you don’t have to fit in, there’s nothing wrong with your experience. Celebrate it!

likeuplifting

I’m a first generation woman of color who recently had this conversation with the only female equity partner of color at my firm. She offered the advice that she has been following - try to find common ground. Maybe they all love golf but also love something else that you do (i.e. a certain type of food) and you can share in those experiences. Or if they are describing a certain experience you’ve never had, you can join in the convo by saying something to the effect of “I’ve never done that before. Tell me more about it.” Unfortunately, the field of law is still struggling to be inclusive. It is NOT your job to adapt (it is the legal field’s responsibility), but hopefully this helps you survive until it improves.

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The feeling will hopefully fade as you spend more time with the group. I’m a woman from a soviet bloc country who grew up on food stamps. Life is obviously different now. Boss and my group are avid skiiers and cannot understand how I don’t ski (we are in aouthern California). The jokes got old so i eventually said “it’s hard to ski when you cant afford bread”. It shut them up.

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As a POC male from a poorer background raised by a single mother, I often struggled with this, feeling like an outsider or an imposter. But I picked up a few “whiter” “male” hobbies that made it easier to interact with my bosses and C-suites, like golf, fantasy football, and auto mechanical skills. I still don’t ski or play tennis, and have some nerdy hobbies that I don’t share with anyone, but it’s essential to have some topics/hobbies of commonality that you can shoot the shit on. I got invited to the team-wide happy hour, and then an invite for top golf with just certain team members, which then segued to an invite to go fishing (no, I don’t really care for it, but it’s day-drinking and no responsibilities, what’s to hate?) which then segued into occasional invites for a monthly poker game, which lead to a friendly relationship with the COO. All of which definitely helped me rise through the ranks, because the people at the top liked me and thought I was an ok guy.

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Sadly, I never adapted and ended up deciding to go in-house. While I was in a firm, I was able to find a few people to really connect and form deep friendships with. Find your people.

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It’s always difficult to join a new company/firm that has an established or tight-knit corporate culture, in addition to the socioeconomic issues you mentioned. Be proud of yourself for doing a hard thing! I don’t have this exact experience but worked with a team that spoke a different language/ had a different cultural background than me. It was hard to build relationships and fit in, when I couldn’t speak the same language or understand their jokes and pop culture references. I don’t think you have to assimilate but I do think it’s helpful to be proactive in starting conversations with your colleagues. For colleagues that I had nothing in common with, I would just ask them questions about their families, background, or even talk about the weather. People are flattered when you express interest in them and they like to share about themselves. It may feel like a one-sided conversation for a while but once they build trust and familiarity with you they will start trying to learn more about you as well. There are always some bad apples that are hard to get along with in any org, but hopefully things will get more comfortable with most of your colleagues over time. And, once someone new joins the team make sure to welcome them in!

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Recruit someone else to your team

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I just mean find an associate that you want to work with and convince them to come to your firm. Not in a cliquey way. It’s a weight lifted to just accept that you’re not going to connect with everyone you work with. But it helps you not burn out if you have at least one person.

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Get into sports, honestly you can really get all of your small talk covered with major sports news. Im Not saying you should get a fantasy league going, but know the highlights

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You don’t need to be a clone and change your entire personality to fit in. But you do need to go out of your way to find things in common otherwise you’re going to have a bad time. You cannot make change to an organization that you’re not a part of…

likefunny

It’s funny because some of the people I’ve ended up becoming close to are people who have completely different backgrounds from me but we cubed on things like TV shows and the like and then discovered we had similar values despite the different backgrounds. I think being authentic is important and eventually you will become close with a few people who value that. Some people you are just not going to get close to regardless of similarities.

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