Genuinely curious. I come in peace. ☮️

Why is everyone so upset by the invasion of Ukraine? No one cared about half the other major world problems or atrocities in the past 5 years. Why suddenly cancel culture Russia now?

Ya, I get it. Sovereign nation. Anti-Putin. Cold War. Russia bad. NATO. Gas prices. Sure. But anyone feel like this is suddenly a huge deal when other atrocities weren't? / Or weren't as publicized?

FTR I'm not actively following it, I just keep seeing it everywhere.

likefunnysmartuplifting
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It’s not that this event is any more morally reprehensible than some of the other atrocities that happen around the world, it’s that Russia is a nuclear power that is attacking a sovereign nation that shares a border with NATO members. The west cares about this event more because it represents a threat to the world order as it exists today.

Wars in Ethiopia, Yemen, wherever else don’t have the same consequences as one involving the largest nuclear power in the world (Russia).

likehelpfulsmart

I mean I was alive in 2008. Was it in the news? Yes.

Were the assets of private Russians seized? No.

Did operas ban Tchaikovsky? No.

Were there calls for NATO intervention that have a genuine potential to trigger a nuclear war? No.

It doesn't compare at all.

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white/euro vs nonwhite/euro

likesmartfunnyuplifting

russia can use any pretext to say war was declacred. clesrly they dont care about legitimacy.

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Cause it’s on the news. I find it fascinating Covid ended the day Russia invaded Ukraine

likefunnysmart

Maybe y’all are watching the wrong news because Covid news never left. 🥱

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Quote from OP:
“[For the record] I’m not actively following it”

If you followed it, you’d understand.

Google 1 knows.

There are complex international agreements and treaties between countries. These are “trip wires” that will trigger World War 3 if crossed.

Ethiopia doesn’t have those trip wires. Ukraine borders a tripwire: Poland. If Russia sneezes into Poland, we get World War 3. Russia already came just 10 km from the border of Poland.

Ukraine’s president keeps asking for a no-fly zone enabled by NATO. Unfortunately, that’s another trip wire. A no-fly zone over Ukraine would give legal clearance to Russia to attack NATO countries, starting World War 3. Nothing happening in Yemen would do that.

Humans have been warring and making atrocities since the dawn of civilization. This is also why run-of-the-mill war in a distant country doesn’t make the evening news. The war requires bigger implications or massive war crimes to gain attention. It’s a sad fact.

likesmart

😤

Lots of people cared about things like the war in Yemen and other bad stuff

Ukraine gets more continuous attention because it’s essentially a proxy conflict between two nuclear superpowers which has the potential to destabilize Europe and the world

As bad as let’s say the situation Yemen or Palestine is, the geopolitical consequences are limited to that region

likehelpful

the refugee crisis is a big destabilizer
the reason why europe has more global influence, etc is major part because tbey used to own the world. their former colonies were left worse off

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OP there have been many horrifying wars across the globe the last 5 years or so. Syria, Yemen, South Sudan, Libya, Israel/Palestine. But those have been largely internal wars or civil wars. Theyve also been much smaller in scale.

This is an unprovoked invasion of a largely peaceful, sovereign country of 44 million people that JUST got its freedom in 2014. And based on the history (if you know it), it’s really just to prevent Ukraine from getting what its people want - a closer relationship with the west. It’s a war that potentially could set the precedent that any nation can be violently subjugated with no consequences.

Based on you using the phrase “cancel culture” in the original post, i’m 99.99% sure you’re a Putin sympathizer, so this is probably falling on deaf ears. But, this actually is different than most recent global conflicts, and it’s much worse.

likefunnysmarthelpful

@a2 sounds like the Ukrainians on the show are trying to get the Russian ones to condemn the war or be kicked off. I don’t personally agree with this but 1) it’s understandable the Ukrainians on the show would do this, and 2) it’s not reflective of society in general. I think we shouldn’t expect Russians who live in Russia or visit very frequently to come out and condemn the war because of the punishments they could face like you said. But to the extent we do that, I’d say that’s us being stupid or naive, thinking it’s so simple to stand up and say the right thing — but it’s a big stretch to show this is a hate of Russian people

I usually don't go the straight up "liberal" route with these kind of things but in this case...

It's because most of the people getting bombed are white

likefunny

I disagree PwC5. While nuclear war is certainly an anxiety, at a more basic level this war has been shaped into a narrative of “civilized” vs “uncivilized”, or, white vs non-white. When even professional journalists find themselves saying the quiet part out loud, it’s not hard to understand that that’s also how many average Americans see the conflict.

Recently reading more on Mimetic Theory led by Rene Girard. Go look at the concept of scapegoating wherein a community / country will cast all of their societal ills on a singular party and caste them out of the community or kill them and in so doing absolve themselves of their ills. Putin is essentially the western world's scapegoat right now.

likefunnysmart

The world is attacking all Russians for the actions of a crazy dictator so can see a bit of where this is coming from. Not to say no one is to blame or that Russia isn't being horrible right now, but more to say that a bigger emphasis is put on this than any recent conflict thus showing there's more at play than just countries feeling bad for Ukraine

When white people kill other white people, it’s sensational news. No one cares about other combos.

likesmartfunny

It’s more than just gas prices - it’s our entire economy. It’s our relationship with China. It’s the threat of NUCLEAR WAR. We already nearly had a Chernobyl-like incident at Zaporizhzhia. If that had happened, most of europe would have had to evacuate. Is this resonating yet? I could continue.

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If the west actually was worried over nuclear war they would have driven for world denuclearization. This Russian apologia of being goaded is nonsense

Each country has a large diaspora in the US and Western Europe. So plenty of people personally know Russians and Ukrainians being personally impacted.

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Adding some street art:

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likefunny

Many of us did care about other atrocities. But the scope (a whole country subject to scorched-earth) is bigger, and this time we're seeing this happen to a country that is not only sovereign but strong. Not only is it infuriating what Putin is doing, it's scary to many of us in other presumably "safe" and strong countries on a personal level. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere. And if Putin's speech a month ago can be believed, he intends to target NATO next. Many of us never expected this as a possibility in our lifetimes - this level of atrocity or strong sovereign countries being invaded unprovoked. I'm definitely losing sleep over this in a way I didn't when it came to other atrocities, although I did still care about what was happening.

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What does “strong” mean here? Is it about modernity, military, or something else?

smart

Because it's giving off major "Germany invades Poland in 1939" vibes. That's why people care.

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All of the above answers are on point - it’s mainly because of NATO and nukes. But it’s also because this is an unprecedented military action in recent memory.

The world is used to civil wars, insurgencies, and proxy wars. The world shrugged when Putin’s little green men took over Crimea, and again when the insurgency in the Donbas raged.

But this is a full-scale invasion of a large, populous, modern nation by another for purposes of annexation - something the world hasn’t seen (I believe?) in many decades. *Hundreds of thousands* of troops are fighting in major battles near multiple major cities. Thousands of tanks, hundreds of aircraft.

This is a huge deal, and a crushing blow to the world order.

And part of that is that Ukraine, as a large, and established nation, has the wherewithal to plead its case on the world stage. Zelensky’s moving addresses to world leaders have made headlines. Ukraine’s expertly crafted online propaganda machine has been hugely successful. And first-hand accounts by people with smartphones on the ground have spread like wildfire. The poor people of Yemen don’t have that sort of resource.

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I don't necessarily agree with our support any of these theories, but they seem to be as follows:

- Ukrainians are predominantly White European's which is more relatable and draws people's minds back to the world wars of the last century.

- Many see this war as a first shot at democracy and the West, fearing that Ukraine is the beginning of a new era of attempts at Russian expansion and the reconstruction of the USSR.

- Many see this as a proxy war reminiscent of those fought throughout the Cold War and that led to WWI.

- The threat of nuclear escalation looms in the background.

- Many in Oceania fear that this is a prototype invasion for the eventual annexation of Taiwan by China.

- Some fear that reactions of the collective Western world may push Russia closer to China, Iran, etc. and create a more powerful enemy alliance in the future.

- Russia is a major resources exporter for Europe in particular and globally, the financial effects of the economic instability that attends this conflict are being felt the world over at all levels.

- Ukraine is also a major exporter of agricultural products such as wheat and is being felt in a similar to the above in some countries/industries.

- Many fear that Russia and China's Cyber capabilities may be used in ways that either directly or indirectly harm people, governments, and business globally in the same way NotPetya did.

- Ukraine has done an excellent job of information warfare harnessing the internet and unlike other recent conflicts, they seem to have generally maintained unrestricted internet access, allowing the world to really see what's going on in real time.

likehelpful

I would also add that it’s timing coincided with Ukraine considering joining NATO.

In addition to all the good points above.

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Google 1’s response makes the most sense, in that the conflict has the potential for serious and far reaching geopolitical consequences, which is a good working definition of newsworthiness.

But something about the conflict seems off and I just can’t put a finger on it, which drives me nuts bc an analysis based on “feelings” isn’t particularly trustworthy or useful - it’s too vague and low resolution and subjective. Even so, I mention it bc the feeling is one of being deceived and manipulated, and the knowledge of such dynamics usually starts with an intuition that something doesn’t add up that leads people to pay attention. I suspect I’m not alone.

And then I also observe that I essentially know nothing about the Ukraine and have almost no meaningful ability to “fact-check” or verify anything in the news, particularly as I’ve lost trust in all mainstream news sources. The bio-labs fiasco is a case in point, and I am adrift in a sea of conflicting narratives and claims that leaves my feet searching for anchorage on some fixed point that I know is true. That dynamic exists for me for everything Ukraine related.

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I don’t understand « the same set of facts from both sides ». Which two sides? You mean from Putin’s side? The man who is notoriously known for censorship? The dictator who puts in prison anyone who speaks against him?
Sure… both sides have equal weights 🤔

As for the comment around « out of blue attack » and « sanctions are good enough ».. of course no one thinks that. Part of Ukraine was invaded not even 10 years ago. Putin put tanks at the borders right before the olympics. Of course no one thinks that. But solving such a conflict in this globally interdependent and complex world is not that easy. First of all, triggering a world war 3 would be unlikely to lead to fewer casualties. And i’d dare to say most western nations, if not all, wish deeply to avoid that. Secondly China is likely an unofficial ally to Russia here, and is also a large power (incl military) on which many countries are economically dependent. China can’t speak against this because they wiSh to do the same to Taiwan.
This is ultra simplified version 101 and most certainly does not cover a much wider and deeper network of players and interests. But to state that it is out of the blue or that people just think it will be enough is ignoring some very basic facts.

Because it is happening to white people

funnylike

Many reasons why this war is different from other recent conflicts.

1) This is a large-scale war of annexation by a neighboring country.

2) This is an invasion of a peaceful democracy.

3) Indiscriminate bombing of civilians and destruction of non-military infrastructure.

4) Massive disinformation campaign by the Russians, including many deliberately misleading “whatabout” claims such as the one you’ve posted here.

likehelpfulfunny

People, especially POC, can both be on Ukraine’s side and frustrated and angry at the unbalanced empathy their fellow Americans have for humans caught up in other conflicts. That’s not misinformation, that’s nuanced thinking.

Why are you more concerned about a shooting on your street vs a shooting in another city? That’s your answer. Hits closer to home for Europeans/ possibly some Americans.

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