{ "media_type": "text", "post_content": "Has anyone ever had experience with identifying gender pay gap/discrimination and what you did to (hopefully) correct it? Or did you get pegged as “that person”?", "post_id": "5c476fea8769f30018c21e6a", "reply_count": 81, "vote_count": 3, "bowl_id": "552d1d24dc1c586b09d2d051", "bowl_name": "Consulting" }

Has anyone ever had experience with identifying gender pay gap/discrimination and what you did to (hopefully) correct it? Or did you get pegged as “that person”?

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Reposting as a top level comment as it will likely get buried. Differences in pay between men and women explained competely by the different choices men and women make when given the same choices in the same environments. SA1 is correct although the statement should be clarified to say that there is no gender pay gap as a result of discrimination due to gender. Female uber drivers average 7% less pay per hour than men even though uber driver compensation is determined solely by the app which is completely gender agnostic. https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adigaskell/2018/02/12/are-female-uber-drivers-paid-less-than-male-drivers/

likesmart

Have you considered that many settle out of court?

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Oh jeez... here we go again, people who don’t know stats quoting studies. My grad school thesis was on wage gaps. The classic methodology is called the Blinder Oaxaca decomposition and it’s been around since the early 70s (now more sophisticated methodologies are built upon it). Basically it mathematically splits the gap into what can be explained due to observable characteristics ( avg over time worked, tenure, education, commute to work, self selection into occupations etc) and non observable characteristics (used to be called discrimination). The last time I checked the unexplainable/discrimination gap for women was around 7-8% and it was increasing at higher wage percentiles (i.e. evidence of the glass ceiling effect). Now there is a lot curious behavioral Econ/psychology research, for example showing differences in way men and women compete for monetary awards, which in the workplace could translate to women not negotiating promos or salary increases. But that also brings a question, is that a biological difference or due the way we raise kids (teaching boys to play competitive games and girls more egalitarian games)?

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Well, there’s no such thing.

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SA2 - that’s not what it implies; please re-read and if you want I can explain if you still don’t see why. AC1- happy to educate you with some graduate level reading lists if you’re legit interested but I’ll note that a some Google search re:bias in coding/algorithms leads to major headlines concerning hiring in top tech companies. This is old news that you should be aware of and renders half your argument toothless. So if you actually want to see a bunch of links I doubt you’re going to click on... I can do that. But don’t expect me to sit down for a half hour during the workday and hash this out with you. Extend the same courtesy you would expect for yourself. I think you are coming from a sincere place and are just misinformed. I don’t think you’re someone who deserves to be spoken down to; I’d like to think you would feel the same way about others here

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OP I would suggest reposting in the women’s bowl, where we can have an actual productive discussion about your situation and stop having theoretical conversations about whether or not your concerns are valid. I had a situation where I wasn’t offered productivity pay the year that I took maternity leave and I had a tough conversation with HR about how that was unacceptable. I’m sure some people thought i was being pushy, when it comes to being fairly compensated (especially considering I had a family to support) I didn’t care. So you can raise issues when you come across them, but you need to think through your approach because bringing it up.

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Here’s a real world example. I recently found out that a male coworker makes more money than me. We have the same number of prior years of experience, have MBAs from target schools, started on the same day, work in the same unit, and have been evaluated almost exactly the same. Why does he make $5k more than me a year? OP I just found this out and plan on bringing it up with my Director when we discuss year end performance. I don’t care if I get labeled “that person” because there is no reason why I’m paid less and I refuse to just take what I’m given and be happy. I found out because I asked and explained that I wanted to be prepared. Good allies will share info

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So let’s say you take the approach to analyze your account team. Let’s say you do see some outliers that don’t seem compensated equal to peer group. Then an RCA might get to a source for that to help ID points this may happen at. Maybe it’s hiring and what the market was that year, hot skills, maybe it’s after parental leave (more women take than men), maybe it’s that one project that didn’t go well despite great individual performance. Those things seem explainable. If you don’t see something you can point to, you need to look for sources of bias.

I cannot believe some of these posts are blaming women’s lower pay in the women themselves! Was it a woman’s choice to be offered a lower starting salary for the same job as a man? And it all snowballs from there.

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EY 1 you simplify on an extremely level and to your point campus hires get the same amount that is a situation that matches your "family level situation" so you are correct. Now less bring it into the real world. You need a front and back yard mowed, maybe the back yard is larger and has a big hill so you pay the older child more to mow the back since it is more work. This isn't gender specific but gives a good reason why those kids aren't paid the same. You honestly give a perfectly reasonable argument a bad name with your childish reasoning.

D3, finally someone who under statistics! I couldn’t believe some of the answers on here before your response. I will say, the negotiation aspect is twofold- how women are socialized, but also how society perceives women who negotiate. Studies show that women who negotiate for salaries are less successful than men who negotiate because negotiation is perceived as not a female behavior. It’s called the double-bind.

likesmart

The problem with your argument is the idea that men and women are presented the same choices. Put a silly way - “Cake or death?” is a very different question when put to a young healthy person versus someone who is in hospice care. Men and women frequently face different choices even if they are on the surface identical

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The wage gap for people in similar job and industry with similar experience is 3%. That's not a sign of sexism, that's variance in the sample.

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This is 100% correct and yet nobody is willing to say it. Congrats to you

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The much bigger figures that are cited arise when you compare all working women with all working men. That means women who chose social science jobs vs men who chose engineering, women who chose elementary school nurse with men who chose ER over night weekend shifts.

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You will never have the salary data necessary to know for sure and prove it. The only thing you can do is get a better offer and leave. Which you don't need to know for sure whether the market values you more highly than your employer because you're a woman or for some other reason to do.

likeuplifting

When you compare people in same field and experience and limit to those in their twenties, women come out ahead in salary.

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In the local transit system women earn less than men in a.system with.union rules and.fixed wages. The women just choose less OT and fewer weekends and nights.

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If you want to ask for more money go for it; forget valid or not, forget whose fault it is. Be prepared to job hunt if they say no, don't blink, do not threaten. Bear in mind you can only do this so often or mgt will start making contingency plans for when you do resign. (Maybe 5% is enough to trigger this, maybe it's not) Please have more support for your case than "he got 5% more than me". What is YOUR worth, where are you vs ALL relevant peers, how is YOUR performance and YOUR utilization?

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There are settings where there seem to be somewhat balanced privileges. There are also settings where men are more favored. Negotiation is a big factor but there are also considerations like networking. How do the women have a chance when the outing was a bunch of men go golfing, hitting a hockey game, or visiting a cigar bar? You might say the women can choose to go but that invite was never extended and you just hear about it afterwards when others are complaining about favoritism. Or the topics are always sports and cars? Totally fair and even playing ground.

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Fair point M1, this was something I had not thought of before.

I’ve asked my CC to request a salary evaluation from HR It compares me to peers in same alignment and market. The CC gets to see the numbers and can give you perspective. Do ask. Do get clarity and tell others and do this for your counselees. When something doesn’t add up, trust your gut and ask questions

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Curious how many that are posting articles and opinions have either studied this/related fields or are currently doing work in HC.

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It's not my argument, it's not even an argument. it is the scientific findings of researchers at Harvard and Stanford.

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