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This person just commented positively on a post that 1) criticizes the way female attorneys dress (because *gasp* we care more about our lawyering skills than satisfying someone else’s flawed image of what a pretty little lawyer should dress like), and 2) was incredibly demeaning towards female support staff.
Take whatever they say with a grain of salt.
Parameters can be changed. I don't "look like a lawyer" and that's become a selling point for me. It's an ice breaker and it puts cornus at ease for the most part. I'm sure there are a few clients who haven't taken me as seriously as they would have over the years, but I'm doing fine in my practice.
Professional attire (especially for women - who can’t get away with wearing the same 5 suits all the time) is extremely expensive. Sometimes law clerks/young associates wear out the first “work clothes” they purchased because money is an issue. Have you considered paying her a bit more? If you’re a small enough firm, you could offer to reimburse your associates for professional wardrobe/dry cleaning services if image is a top priority.
Agree with C2. I’m at a “white shoe” firm and I’ve rolled into client meetings with frizzy hair, jeans and yesterday’s makeup. My clients either don’t care or dressed even worse - I actually had a bonding moment with a client over jewelry. Strict dress codes are pretty old school; nonlegal folks consider suits intimidating, most associates equate it with inability to use technology, and even some partners make jokes about style over substance.
Pro
I suggest that you offer her a custom made suit to say thank you for all of her hard work. Select the tailor and pay the bill. As a plus size female attorney I know how hard it is to even find a suit. (Most stores don’t even carry plus size suits.). If the hair is an issue too then maybe a makeover as a gift?
Thank you for this. He mentioned she may be plus sized which makes finding clothing that looks "modest" very hard. ESPECIALLY in small towns where the options are Walmart, boutiques where the large is made in China and really a size 6, and online which might not even fit when it gets to you.
You can say that a client or judge mentioned she did not look professional. Sometimes this helps if it’s a “thought you should know” rather than “I’m telling you what to do”.
Thank you. We are a very small firm and she is a super intelligent lawyer but I know that clients have a hard time seeing what I know. We will set her up with consults and things and it’s tough.
How’s the work product? If work product is good, results are achieved, and judges don’t care, then why do you? I have what you might call an “alternative” look, but nobody at my employer gives a single shit about that because my work product speaks for itself.
I’d see if you can have someone else in office (if there is anyone else) talk to her about it. I absolutely think less of another lawyer’s judgment if they look disheveled or wear ill fitting clothes, and that’s a reasonable professionalism concern that firm leaders should address. Tougher at a small firm to have those conversations probably where it’s you having to talk to her and not some other person who had firm wide responsibility for things like that.
This post is just, how do I say it... Hmmm. Put it this way, good thing I left my previous firm because I could really hear one female partner's voice while reading OP's post. *shudders
Have you thought about maybe giving her a stipend for professional clothes? I worked at a funeral home and the boss gave staff members an annual stipend for professional clothing because he expected us to dress a certain way. As for her messy hair and smeared makeup . . . Maybe suggest hairstyles? If you’re a woman then maybe say you think she’d look nice with a ballerina bun. This is tough. I’ll assume you’re coming from a good place, but please try to understand that the comment about her looking like someone who had her children removed was overkill.
This. I also work in a small town and I’m paid acceptably, but not at the level that I can afford what my partners expect me to wear. I still dress acceptably, so they’d never complain, but it’s clearly not as post as they want. Also, we reimburse for a hair and makeup appointment (with no limit) for headshots. This is something I could have never afforded when I first started and as a third year I still wouldn’t drop the money on.
K
What exactly did you say to her when you spoke with her? Also, keep in mind that your idea of ‘put together’ might not be something that another person wants for themselves. Other than the hair, is there anything else that should be addressed?
Putting aside OP’s viewpoints and insensitive characterizations that are most likely a result of harboring multiple “-isms”, shouldn’t the standard for doing in-office non-client facing work be different than how you appear in court or for client meetings? I definitely look sharp when I go to court, and I make sure to “blow out” my hair bc otherwise it doesn’t look “professional,” but if I am sitting at my desk all day researching and writing, I dress casually. If I am under deadline, I might even have a messy bun and a wrinkled shirt. Why would anyone want their associates / attys to focus on appearance instead of work product? Sometimes as litigators we need to devote 12 + hours per day to the work - leaving no time for wardrobe and hair.
Is there a dress code at the firm? We are at a small firm, we don't do court appearances, and we rarely have clients on site, but we still have/had a dress code until recently. Even now, when we are dress down permanently (when in the offce) Jeans can't have holes, and a miniskirt and revealing shirt would be against the dress code, and we are required to have our hair groomed. In my view it would be very different if she was informed by an office manager that her skirts are too short for a dress code then if her superior told her she looks like a "hot mess."
Beyond that, I'm conflicted here. The OPs tone strikes me as her not being the right person to have this conversation. Dark sense of humor or not, her telling us that she thought the person looks like her kids should be taken away makes me wonder how she approaches the attorney.
Separately, I can sympathize with the issue. It's great to say we shouldn't worry about the way people look, but we are in the business of getting clients, and clients judge. When I traveled to Asia for the first time, my colleagues told me to remember my etiquette and dress appropriately because if our clients are offended, they won't say anything - they will just take their business elsewhere.
Bottom line, I think it should be dealt with in a rule based way, and I don't think OP should be the one to have the discussion.
Tough one. If a great attorney, who really cares, and if clients have nothing bad to say then maybe all is well. Maybe attorney has home issues, perhaps horrible ones, and is doing as best as can be done for appearances. I work from home and meet clients off site at a brewery or Starbucks, sometimes in shorts and always with a polo shirt and a service dog, and have PTSD. Good people do not care, it is the prospective client that says something unkind is the one that I can tend to let go as a possible big headache in the future and would likely have little respect for me. I am in socal, so kind of relaxed here overall though.
Chief
Appearance matters.
I think that you should fire yourself and find her new managing partner. You should’ve asked her if everything is okay at home, or re-evaluated her caseload and your expectations. There’s also the global pandemic we’re all living through. Tbh you sound like a nightmare, so I’m willing to bet you’re part of the problem. I hope you stub your toe tonight for all the terrible things you said to her when you spoke with her. Stub it hard.
Like A1, I’m curious - is it her hair specifically that bothers you?
I mean, is she dressed professionally with a messy bun or do you mean leggings & smudged makeup?
It sounds like she’s struggling. Have you asked if she is okay? If things are okay at home?
Does she get paid well enough to afford things like dry cleaning if needed, tailoring, etc.?
I guess my question is, is this ignorance of professional style or is she unable to attain the kind of look you would expect because of lack of funds and/or personal struggles?
Most people do not appear in court with smudged makeup and dirty wrinkled clothes unless a) they are financially struggling or b) they are emotionally struggling.
In either case, kindness and compassion go a long way. I would suggest taking that approach, as it seems things are extreme and talking to someone about their professionalism usually only works for little things they can fix, like wearing tank tops or not brushing their hair. But this sounds like more.
She sounds like a valuable employee. Invest in her.
Speak to her. While I was in college I worked in an office and until the boss sat me down to talk about the way I dressed (I was a hot mess), it never even occurred to me. Also a clear dress code also makes it easier to indirectly address the issue and prevent it from coming up again.
There is no way you can possibly touch this without a discrimination suit. Just don’t. Seriously.
Put it in a company handbook you give to everyone and don’t address her directly about it.
That said, unless it’s worse than I’m imagining, let it go. I wear a giddy and jeans to the office every now and then and get away with it with no issues because I’m a guy whose competent with a few years of experience. If she’s good, let it go. If she hasn’t earned it yet, do the handbook
Giddy = Hoody
I think you also have to paint the entire picture. Some times an associate is reacting to the environment they are forced to be in OR a general lack of professionalism from their superiors. I’m not saying that that’s what is happening here at all — but those external factors may exist as well.