{ "media_type": "text", "post_content": "I myself am quite skeptical of MBAs in a technology and skills driven world. But that being said, it's bizarre how we automatically associate \"lawyer\" with \"high status and wealthy\" when we don't do quite the same with \"MBA\" and consulting-related stuff.\n\nSource: WSJ", "post_id": "6179a3ae467e780039d87128", "reply_count": 44, "vote_count": 10, "bowl_id": "552d1d24dc1c586b09d2d051", "bowl_name": "Consulting" }

I myself am quite skeptical of MBAs in a technology and skills driven world. But that being said, it's bizarre how we automatically associate "lawyer" with "high status and wealthy" when we don't do quite the same with "MBA" and consulting-related stuff. Source: WSJ

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It’s has the perception of a more old money/elite gatekeeping profession (ABA like you mentioned); You don’t need a degree to understand or run a business. From a 2021 income perspective, the two should be on par, especially at top institutions. Also from a lay audience, Lawyer is easy to explain, management and strategy consultant sounds like fluff. - Signed Lawyer turned consultant

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I think that perception of lawyers is a historical holdover, from the days when doctors and lawyers were seen as the top professions. The WSJ analysis is only helpful to a certain extent — clearly average MBA outcomes far outstrip average JD ones. The more apt comparison should be between top JD vs MBA programs

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Exactly, would love to see outcome distribution for Top 10s vs each other. Would also be curious to see how it progresses since big law salary distributions are very narrow and effectively serve as the peak whereas you’ll have some top tier MBAs coming out at lower salaries that Big Law first years and others coming out potentially 2x that

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Law school is three years, mba is two. MBA is also a huge party while law school is actually hard and comes with a bar exam. Law salaries are bimodal - meaning half make a lot, while half make a little.

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Bcg2, well, yes. But it's worth noting that 1) they are more effective than other lobbies because we are sympathetic to them and 2) we are sympathetic to a point where we don't notice that they don't have consumers' interests at heart. And that their priorities almost always worsen healthcare (and sometimes legal) affordability and outcomes. There's a difference between that and lobbies whose priorities actually also align with societal objectives. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

That's cause most people think the large law firms where you're making 200-250k starting. Like 99% of lawyer aren't that. Last I check first year lawyer average was like 80k. I mean you can make that at D with a bachelors.

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Mostly agree DS1, except for your hypothesis that law school is hard. Law school takes discipline and effort, but I wouldn't categorize it as intense intellectual rigor. Source: I'm a former lawyer.

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Depends how you define hard. Most law schools are pretty cutthroat for grades due to the limited supply of big law jobs. **e** op summed up my thoughts perfectly. I went to a t20 undergrad, was prelaw, got a 170+ lsat score, but then got lucky at OCR and landed a consulting role. I’ve switched pivoted to faang data science. I couldn’t fathom staying on the prelaw track

Flawed comparison. Debt and income is different. Avg mba graduate is early mid career. Avg law grad is first job out of school and the debt is 50% higher due to 3 years. If you compare their income at age 35 compared to debt taken (even tho law school is much more exp), the results would be much different.

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I’m a lawyer and now in an MBA program. MBA courses are a joke. If it weren’t for my finance electives I would say don’t bother going. Bunch of soft skills and talking about our feelings around business cases. Pointless.

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KPMG1 are you saying you have a MBA and that you have not used anything you've learned from it? Otherwise how do you know what you don't know? I don't explicity use what I learned during my MBA everyday. I'd equate it to engineering school. The vast majority of what you learn in engineering is how to think and how to problem solve. MBA gave me a new perspective and experience that I did not think about at all as an engineer. While I don't use any one single class everyday, I have leveraged what I learned in almost all of those classes I described above several times since my career in consulting. I use finance every month when I have to submit my monthly financials for my projects (I don't know about KPMG, but our accounting is not the easiest to follow) and I have definitely seen people struggle with that. I know I would too had I not learned how to do accruals and cost basis forecasting etc. I was inspired during my MBA when I learned about Michael Porter's 5 forces and when in Game Theory. I love both of those topics and yes, I find myself referencing those way more regularly than I do my engineering or chemistry background. But when I reference them with my staff, the mostly look at me with blank stares, which always saddens me.

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A huge proportion of lawyers graduate into a deep financial hole, nowhere near the upper middle class. Apparently, culture hasn't caught up with the national oversupply of lawyers. Most law schools also aren't that selective, and even the most selective law schools have had to relax standards to deal with flagging enrollment.

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There's a lot more bad MBA programs than law schools.

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Not sure how many times this needs to be said, value if MBA varies greatly based on where it’s from. Outside of top few, it’s the easiest master degree you can get and not worth much

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I got an MBA from a state school (not ranked/recognized). It was an evening, part time program taught by adjunct faculty who were all F500 VPs in their field (all had PhD). Quality of instruction with real world application was fantastic. I feel like I got much more value than what I paid ($12k total - finished in 2005). I knew going in that it wasn’t going to get me into any big names, but wanted to invest in myself and not take out a loan to go to school.

I have an MBA, work in tech now and have lots of tech certs. I make good $, but there is a part of me that would like to be a lawyer. For those who have law degrees, why did you leave law?

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what about trial lawyer like criminal defense, prosecution, or civil? I know it pays peanuts, but seems like it would be interesting.

I think MBAs also have a lot less debt because many people going to law school go straight from undergrad with debt right into a 3 year program. 7 years of debt and no income. Whereas MBAs make money and probably pay off undergrad and then get into an MBA program making significant money after.

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This is largely due to the split in people who get into big law vs those who don’t. Big law starting salaries for firms on the cravath scale is $200k now. Not being in big law (especially those who go work for the government) won’t even clear half of that.

I’d say also because you can go into business and succeed in business without a degree much less an MBA. But to be a lawyer there’s no way around going to law school and passing the bar.

Some states don’t require a JD, just that you apprentice under an experienced lawyer. But you do have to pass the bar.

Flawed data set in study. Don’t know many people who take out federal loans for their MBA.

What? Nearly everyone I know at my T15 did federal direct unsubsidized first, then private, then grad plus. Then refinance all to private upon graduation. Only downside to federal is origination fee but the rates were 2%+ better than private (while you’re a student). Once you graduate, refinance rates are rock bottom on private

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FWIW teachers are statistically more likely to have $1M+ in net worth (assets minus liabilities) and arguably one marker for “wealthy” than attorneys or management (Mid level - CEO, but not specific to MBAs…)

D3, if you're referring to Dave Ramsay's millionaire study, you're interpreting it wrong. The study was to see the most common professions amongst millionaires, not the probability of them becoming millionaires. There are more millionaire teachers than lawyers because... there are a lot more teachers. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

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