{ "media_type": "text", "post_content": "I’m having feminist guilt over even thinking this, but has anyone found that working for a male supervisor is SO much easier than working for a female supervisor? And it’s not because I’m super hot, trust me.", "post_id": "62792e0ee193a50028a08381", "reply_count": 148, "vote_count": 150, "bowl_id": "5da60c126e5f0d001f32f497", "bowl_name": "Women in Law", "feed_type": "bowl" }
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I’m having feminist guilt over even thinking this, but has anyone found that working for a male supervisor is SO much easier than working for a female supervisor? And it’s not because I’m super hot, trust me.

likehelpful
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I read an interview with Martha Stewart where she said that she struggles with the “me too” movement because when she was coming up in business she and her female peers shrugged or even laughed off harassment and took pride in their ability to adapt. They took for granted that this was the way things were and did not consider things didn’t have to be that way. I would imagine it would be hard for women with similar experiences to come to terms with the fact that what they thought was an accomplishment was probably at best a coping mechanism and at worst complicity.

It goes without saying that there are amazing and horrible supervisors of every gender. It goes without saying that there are women who are skilled supervisors who are perceived poorly because of sexism. There are women who are poor supervisors because they lack skills. But I think it is worth discussing that there are women who treat other women poorly, either consciously or subconsciously, because of the treatment they themselves received earlier in their career. The only way to break those cycles is to be conscious of them.

likesmart

Many have mentioned excellent points around internalized Misogyny above. Agree with those. One thing I’ve noticed is that we also seem to focus more on terrible female partners than we do men. It’s like we’ve just accepted and take it for granted that men are going to be terrible and hence don’t even focus on that; but with a woman we kick and scream and come to generalized conclusions. They may be bad to work with but the men are equally bad. It probably stems from a high level of expectation from the women - we expect they’d be better to work with, help us out etc, but they’re not that way and it hits harder when that happens. I’ve worked with really terrible men and women.. but when I read this, my first response was ‘ofcourse they are’. When I thought about all of the bad experiences I’ve had, it fell equally on both sides which signals that it has nothing to do with their genders at all. I just tended to focus on the women and didn’t give a second thought to the men..

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this is going to sound a little wacky but sometimes I feel like there’s just more ~subconscious~ satisfaction in making male supervisors happy because we’ve spent decades building up that muscle. i know that the sexist culture we live in has in turn left me conditioned to want to please men in positions of power and the dopamine rush I get after doing so is massive. I’ve started to feel that maybe women aren’t harder to please but the satisfaction from making a woman proud or content doesn’t activate the reward center of my brain the same way.

in short: yes I have felt this way; yes it is a result of internalized misogyny; yes it is a cognitive distortion; some people rock and others are pills

likesmarthelpful

This is so accurate. Very well articulated too!

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Y'all post this every week. 🙄
The one male supervisor I've had was only "easier" because he was too mediocre to hold me accountable.

likefunnysmart

It's not even patronizing. He really wasn't skilled enough. And it was nice for a second, but terrible for my development.

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I think it depends on the man. I’ve worked for some male supervisors who are amazing and treat me just like the guys. Then I’ve worked for some who treat me like their secretary. Personally, the best boss I’ve ever had is my current one, who is a female. But, she’s not threatened by other women, she’s a huge female empowerment advocate, and she has literally told me, “this profession is hard for women. You have to bully your way into the room to get a seat at the table. I want to pay it forward and be that bully for you, so you tell me what you want to do, and we’ll make it happen.” I wish all female bosses were like her!

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She’s definitely one of the good bosses (male or female).

I think many ladies become over-focused on bad female bosses because we are taught to rely on them in ways we do not expect to rely on male bosses. The reality is that it’s probably an equal percentage of stupid across both genders, but whether it’s in the name of diversity and inclusion or just one-on-one mentorship, the firms put us in a position that subjects us to bad female bosses more often than male ones. Add the fact that some bad female bosses may even use “diversity” as an excuse to be cruel, and you get the phenomenon that OP described. I had one once that called me in the middle of my vacation to do a “diversity initiative” for her because she wanted to show me she could control me (weird office politics) — I had to call a senior male partner to get her to back off. On the flip side, I had a different female partner that witnessed a racist co-counsel continuous make awful comments at me call me to check on me, then tell me “don’t worry I got you” before sending him a passworded zip right before a depo knowing that he wasn’t smart enough to figure out how to unlock it. (Depo was fine but client got very pissed at him)

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After my last three female bosses all being awful, I promised myself never again. They have all been passive aggressive, condescending, micro managing, and competitive with me. But I did it again, and this fourth one is better but still exhibits all those qualities.

It isn’t that they hold the bar higher than men do. Rather, it’s that they are anxious and have so much to prove. I hope this changes with as the millennial generation enters high level roles.

likesmart

My female boss rode me hard two years. Now she loves me - I am an ally when it comes to not being an idiot for details. I am the most productive associate at the firm and she knows. I like my woman boss! #ladyboss

likesmart

It depends. I currently work for women right now and this is the best job I’ve ever had. But I’ve found that women who are maybe a generation older than me (who are currently mid 50s, but this has been the case even when I/they were younger) can be very difficult to deal with - I think they had to become a certain way in order to be successful as a female attorney at the time that they entered the profession and just stayed that way.

likesmart

Yeah but I’ve had this issue with women in their early 40s as well. But I’m sure they had to fight for their place too.

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The best boss I’ve ever had was a female. The worst boss I ever had was also a female. I think it depends.

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Same.

Why is this posted every week

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Female here. Def did not go off the rails lol totes relaxed.

It’s the fact that you see nothing wrong in saying “kill me now” over a post on an app? Why is a comment like that even necessary to be said? It’s not an expression that was said in conversation. Normally it’s used when someone is overwhelmed or dreading to do something. Not over someone else’s post. Did you ever think that a comment like that could be offend or hurt someone who is/was suicidal?

The whole point of this app is to share thoughts, ideas and perspectives. It doesn’t help when people comment immature things like A2, and AA2 for that matter. Just scroll past the post if it’s repetitive to you. There’s new members joining every day.

A2: not sure why my writing “novels” on this post is funny? If I “just had to find something to say,” then what exactly was the point of your own post? To be Informative? Thought provoking? Give a personal perspective on the issue? Na. Just pure immaturity.

Oh no, another novel! 😬😘😘

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I think the point of this post is to bring awareness and attention to the fact that there are some females in the senior-level/manager/boss position who just SUCK. Their reasoning for such can vary, and i have no doubts that men, firm culture and this industry probably made them that way. However, it still doesn’t make it acceptable!!!!!!!!!!! It’s still NOT OK and MISERABLE to work with. The point of this thread (from what I gather) is to bring it to light and to hopefully STOP it and have women hopefully evaluate themselves and their managerial skills, in order to see some changes.

We cannot go around accepting it just bc they’re female and some men made them that way. F&!K that! Some women are straight up b@$ches and need to reevaluate, get the stick out their ass and start showing their support and guidance for fellow females they are superior too, instead of dragging them down with them and basically encouraging other females to turn into the same miserable C-U - Next - Tuesdays.

I’m all for strong female power and position but I refuse to be the cause of another female to feel less than, talked down to, unappreciated or feel like I’m difficult to work with bc of my personality.

We should be pulling female colleagues that we supervise into our offices to have a one-on-one conversation about the unequal roles men and women play, how we got to superior level, pointers on how to deal with men in this industry and how to successfully “make it” to the “top”. Give them some insight on our experience and maybe give them perspective on why we are more stern or “difficult” as leaders.

Idk but attacking OP is literally just continuing the cycle bc none of y’all gave any good advice on how to deal with the guilt she mentioned or insight that may change her perspective.

Sending extra love and light this fine Tuesday morning bc y’all obviously need it (probably some coffee, too)!!!! 🤍

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Completely agree with you A2.

Women who put the onus on other women to “help each other out” are contributing to the problem. I don’t owe my female subordinates a hand up any harder than my male subordinates. If they’re good, they’ll earn a seat at the table. If they’re not, it isn’t my job to advocate to give them an undeserved seat.

likeuplifting

I would never expect anything from a colleague other than for them to do their job. Unless providing mentorship is in my job description, I would never go above and beyond for someone simply for the fact that they are a woman. Giving preferential treatment to a woman simply because she is a woman is sexist.

I think it depends…

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It definitely does.

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I’ve been practicing for almost 10 years and have never felt this. I have great relationships with both male and female partners. I have a couple partners that I really hate working for, but it’s for reasons that are pretty unique to them.

I hate this gender stereotype. Women are already pressured to be extra nice and smile all the time. It’s so annoying.

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In my case as the pool of male Partners is so much larger than that of female Partners, the bad female ones stick out more. I’ve worked extensively for 2 female partners (F are less than 30% of Partners) and I didn’t vibe with them. I’ve not vibed with more than 2 male Partners, but there have been so many more male Partners that have been great that male Partners, on average, seem nicer. This is clearly a sampling issue, but doesn’t mean it cannot also be true. I’m a woman with 0 interests in children etc and the female seniors/ Of Counsel I’ve found great to work with have been on the same page. I find bon vivants just more fun, and easier to work with, and more men fall into that category. I also know that I like working with many men that my female colleagues cannot stand and vice versa. So, it depends. Find the people that work for you and work with them.

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The best boss I had was an elderly white guy, followed by a young female partner in her early forties. The worst boss I had was also an elderly white guy, followed by a young female partner in her early forties.

I guess I don’t get to draw conclusions 😂

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I’ve had some great and some terrible bosses, with men and women on both sides of the aisle. It’s almost like you can’t generalize an entire gender of supervisors?

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I have a female supervisor and she’s excellent. She makes me want to be that kind of supervisor. I think it just depends on the person

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YES!!! And just like you, I feel terrible I feel that way as a feminist but my female bosses have been nightmares! They're so competitive and hypercritical. I've thought quite a bit about it and I'm not sure if it's because they have had to claw their way up the chain or what. But I'm convinced they see me as competition even if I'm under them.

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Working with men in general is easier than working with women. I said it.

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It depends; really a personality issue.

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I think it's a personality issue. The worst partners I worked with happened to be female but as others have mentioned above, I think they were hardened by their experiences coming up through the ranks. However two of my most favourite partners have been female. One was very senior and was extremely knowledgeable, respected in the firm and always displayed compassion and a genuine desire to develop her associates. This is someone I see as a true mentor. The other favourite is a junior partner who displays the same qualities as the senior. I have high hopes for the females coming up in the newer generation and I am optimistic. I'm sure there will be bad apples but I think this is just personality driven and will be the case irrespective of gender.

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I've only ever worked under female lawyers. They've been from all different generations. They have all been very solid, wonderful lawyers and are people who are interested in mentoring younger female attorneys.

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