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It's not an indication of much. It means you were good at taking tests and memorizing things. There is a lot more to being a good lawyer that law school grades and the entire process don't teach or measure, like soft skills, practicality, communicating technical legal concepts into regular language so your non-lawyer client can understand, being able to think outside the box to solve problems rather than retreating into reciting the law because it's safe and requires no risk, being able to admit you don't know something or that you are wrong... I could go on and on. Be overly prepared, open-minded and ready to learn. That usually helps me with feelings of intimidation or insecurity, esp the overly prepared part.
Great advise. He is right on. I should in my legal career I was a lawyer who was up against lawyers from big New York law firm.
Doing well in law school means you were good at law school. I don't think it truly correlates to how effective you are at the actual practice.
I did go to a T1 and graduated summa, but, I've spent my career as a transactional attorney. Recently, I have taken on a real nasty child custody dispute, pro bono. I am up against am attorney who has been practicing about as long as I have been alive, and who has been practicing exclusively family law.
Am I intimidated at every zoom hearing? Yep.
But, have I won every hearing? Yep. Why? I have out-investigated and out-prepared her every time. I'm nervous for the first few minutes of each hearing, and then I calm down and get on with it.
Stay calm. Win via your preparation. Out-research them. Out-prepare them. Out-practice them. The best grades in the world won't help them if you've done your homework and they haven't.
D1, I was in a similar situation. I took on a complex L&T case pro bono just 2 years out of law school. Handled the matter through seven separate and different types of legal proceedings. Opposing counsel had his own firm and was well established with about 25 years or so of practice. He was in housing court regularly and knew everyone. I bought a pass to a local law library and studied landlord-tenant law. I actually created an outline as I had in law school. I bought an excellent treatise. I reached out to folks for help. Used additional resources. I SCARED opposing counsel who was unethical because I was prepared and zealously represented my clients. Unfortunately, the judges refused to sanction him when it was warranted.
Absolutely not. Malcolm Gladwell had a good Revisionist History pod on this.
Thanks OP!
All Ivy League attorneys I’ve come across are pompous asses and are terrible at human interaction.
I say that without equivocation. Change my mind.
Many people I know who are the hiring partners, typically state that the reason they plike to hire individus from my law school, is because many of people being interviewed act as if they've ARRIVED. The act as if the world OWES them and have a CHIP IN THEIR SHOULDERS).
My own experience with those attorneys coming from the big city (purposely vague), is they're meaner then a junk yard dog. I once left with my clients during Mediation because the Mediator didn't talk to us, what just burning up the time for the attorney to bill. DEFENSE called me list as I got into my care & threatened to take my ckie ts and help them sue me. I said, "This is a VOLUNTARY Mediation. We have a a long drive & need to leave before traffic became too much." I told him we weren't coming back
He said he'll get me fired. I said over a voluntary mediation? I don't think so.
Another attorney from an ivy league said and did some horrible things to me Scorched earth policies and working to destroy me personally.
No. I could start blabbing on and on but the answer is simply no. If you’re in litigation it literally amounts to jack shit. The better lawyer is the one who is better prepared. It’s that simple.
What about if you’re in corporate?
No, law school performance is not indicative of how good of an attorney you can be. I certainly would never say that being ranked high is a negative indicator. However, in the litigation arena, being a good attorney is about hard work and knowledge of the law, both substantive and procedural. It’s about writing persuasively and arguing persuasively. It’s about being skilled in managing client expectations, having strong negotiating skills, and being able to deliver results for your clients.
In my law school graduating class, probably less than half of the attorneys still are practicing after 22 years. Some that still practice were at the top of our class, some in the middle, and some near the bottom. The five most successful and best lawyers in my class (and it’s not even close) were all in the middle to lower third of the class.
No no no! I was middle of the pack at a tier 2 law school and ended up working in big law. I thank my lucky stars but it has only shown me that all the people I was initially intimidated of (my office mate whom I love dearly is a Columbia grad) are human. We all have feels, make mistakes, do some things incredibly and others terribly. Focus on your growth and you’ll be solid.
And, also, try not to look into where people went to school and their ranking. It doesn’t matter much after you’re barred.
Be afraid of no one in this game.
Read your file, do your work, and prepare. You'll do better than half the chumps who show up.
No way. Being a successful practitioner takes charm, creativity and a little swag; things you just can’t learn in law school 😉
Hah definitely not in litigation.
I am reacting so hard to this I am struggling not to bust out cursing so I will say 💩 no! No one cares when you are a lawyer where you ranked in law school and how you did on the Bar Exam. As soon as you have your license it is an even playing field. When these attorneys throw it in your face that they are top of the class types. Don’t react at all and try to ignore them (I mean behave as if they are invisible to you, rather than ignoring just the behaviour). Act like you don’t have time for them. Get busy with something else when they try to make you feel inferior, as if what they have said is too boring to be acknowledged. Anyone who thinks a law school grade matters that much is a royal class narcissist. If you ignore a narcissist, they eventually disintegrate into an emotional wreck. Avoid making eye contact and walk away from them when they are still talking. When they say something they think is important, pretend like you weren’t listening and ask them to repeat it. If they say something meant to intimidate you don’t say anything. Just stare at them calmly. It’s like a game if you play it right, they collapse on themselves and you move forward.
No. Since when did law school teach one how to be a lawyer?
If you are "across the table" from them, then that's all you need to know. You're both in the same spot and they are your equal. Working with opposing counsel requires being creative, negotiating smart, etc. That isn't a given by alma mater or grades.
I graduated in the bottom quarter of my class and have definitely had a more successful career than many people who graduated ahead of me. I also have far more hands-on experience than biglaw associates of the same class level.
No. I did not graduate from an Ivy League or go to big law but my associates and I have gone up against big law associates and crushed them in court. Many are definitely competent but many are not. Don’t be intimidated and have confidence in your work.
Graduating No 1 in ones class is absolutely no indication of how good an advocate you will be. Work harder and smarter than Biglaw and you’ll kick his ass eventually. Remember, you and he work off of the same statutes and case law. So he has no advantage over you.
I wouldn’t say that it’s indicative. People who graduate top of their class typically are smart, good at memorization, and worked hard, but they might not actually be good at practicing law (esp. litigation). Do I think that they’re generally probably a group of decent lawyers? Most likely (but not always). But I would think of it as a correlation, not causation type of situation.
Stand your ground. You’ll be just fine if you put in the effort and succeed at working with others.
I don’t think so. I graduated right at mediocre and the first time I faced an opposing partner from a mid-size firm that wouldn’t even interview me, my boss got a call praising me for the work I did and how professional I was while backing her into a corner.
I think there’s some truth to the very top and very bottom of the class but the in between is just throwing a dart at a wall.
No way. I am a way better attorney than I was a law student. I only got to spend 3 years honing my skills as a law student, but I’ve been spending nearly 15 years honing my skills as an attorney.
There’s more to consider with “law school performance” than just grades. Work ethic, to start, that caries over. Being professional with your colleagues, that caries over. Top of the class is not everything.