It is incredibly demoralizing to be killing myself slogging through diligence for a very complicated target, including drafting an extensive diligence memo, all on a very tight timeline, just to be left off all the interesting calls about the purchase agreement where I could learn b/c partner is concerned about the bill & doesn’t want to write off time. It makes me feel like I’m not on the team & am just a worker bee drone & I am way less motivated to do my best work.

Partners, do better.

likeupliftingsmarthelpful
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I saw on another Fishbowl thread that there are firms that have a bill code just for shadowing and watching. It removes the disincentive for Partners to allow juniors to be flies on the wall

likehelpful

Glass half full… The trade off is having an entry level six figure job that starts with a 2, I suppose?

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Coming up on the end of my first year and I feel this. I feel myself so much more motivated by deal teams that include me on more calls/show the path to the next level. They might think they’re “sparing you” and pleasing the cost-sensitive client. The firm may also allow (billable) shadowing hours for juniors, which you could perhaps suggest? I think partners/seniors forget about this so I think it’s OK to suggest.

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Second year. Totally feel you. I told one of the partners this a while back and said I’d like to be more involved on the deals for my own learning purposes. I even said it would be today fine for the time spent on call to be written off as appropriate or I could just keep working on the report during the call but at least I would have some idea of what’s going globally.

I’m now invited on the calls of smaller to midsize deals, but the big ones are still elusive to me. Haven’t noticed time written off though and hopefully they’ll let me in the bigger ones one day some day.

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Partners have no obligation (nor does it make any sense) to keep juniors involved in all workstreams. Are you a first year? Just lol.

likefunny

Go away

like

As inferences from P1s statements, he cares more about his comp and his relationships with his own clients than the relationship he builds with his juniors. That’s justifiable. But then partners need to realize we associates only have an incentive to look out for number one. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

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NYU1 - Sure, a few thoughts:

1. We have extensive training programs for associates. They aren’t all perfect, but they really are quite good (all taught by top partners in the area and the partners spend a lot of time on them)—I actually use them at times myself.

2. I’m oversimplifying in my parenthetical, but I see a significant difference between letting an associate take the first effort at drafting a document and then providing feedback on their draft (all of which is also learning) vs billing to listen into a call where associate isn’t needed or actually doing anything other than learning. Sure, I could draft any document marginally faster (or have a senior associate do it marginally faster), but associate is still adding value while learning. This is also far more defensible with clients than an extra associate sitting on a call.

3. Personally, I don’t really care about RTO but I do make a significant effort to be in the office as I think it does enhance the training for associates. My door is always open for folks to come in and chat and ask questions.

4. If you think I’m paying a ton of attention to .1 time entries, you would be wrong. I don’t really care about stuff like that. But purchase agreement calls frequently run multiple hours so that is quite a different scenario.

like

That’s all fine and well. Though I think it’s ultimately a value judgment on your part.

I’m too young to know what private practice was like 50 years ago but in my time practicing it seems the categories of commercialism have replaced those of disinterested service and now the spirit of the horse trader broods over the face of the profession.

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