It seems partners are much more flexible with associates who have kids than with those who don’t. If it’s okay for my colleague with a kid to leave at 5 pm and log on later, why isn’t that the same for me (no kids)? My obligations might be different, but I still have a life and want to be able to do certain things, like catch that evening workout class or cook dinner for my partner. As you can probably tell, my firm is operating 100% in person. There is no point here — I’m just whining.

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Because the kid is an affirmative obligation of the associate, whereas your flexibility is a convenience. As an attorney parent, I would much prefer to work straight through until 6:30-7 and then have my evening to myself, rather than leave at 5:15, get the kid settled by 6:30 and then work through dinner in order to log the same hours as my childless colleagues. Leaving to pick up the kid is a minimal accommodation; we have the same hours and fee realization requirements as you do.

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lol the arrogance of this response blows my mind. “Your life is a convenience that we will not accommodate.” God, I can’t wait until this toxic mentality is out of the workplace. Work to live, don’t live to work, I have a kid too, but even if I didn’t, I would want the ability to get my work done when I choose instead of being stuck on site for the majority of my day. Firms with this kind of mentality will eventually die out because no one will want to work there.

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You can do those things? In my experience parents get the time because they ask for it and treat it as non-negotiable (because it isn't). If you want to go do something you need to treat it as non-negotiable. If you are worried about the impact on your career and choose not to put your foot down, then it's negotiable. Only you will set your boundaries. But parents keep their boundaries because their children literally need them. I don't literally need to grab drinks with a friend on a Tuesday so usually I don't set a hard boundary. Just depends on your priorities really

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If management does not view it non-negotiable and you don’t dare to leave the door, then it is negotiable. You think when I stuck my neck out and asked to leave early, I did not think about leaving the job?! Funny.

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I sympathize with your plight as I was once a childless adult myself, and often observed the powers that be straining to ensure people with families got to have Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc. off, while childless people were expected to cover for them. However, now that I’m a parent, I understand the needs for flexibility and accommodations. You will eventually have kids and will also appreciate the flexibility and accommodations. If you don’t plan on having kids, consider that your coworkers kids will eventually be paying your social security.

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Not going to lie, this was also a serious problem.

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Same boat- no kids but sometimes I want to go get a haircut or have dinner with a friend. I used to just cancel plans but I’m tentatively asserting myself more (For context, I’m with this firm for over 4 years). It’s frustrating but I really think we need to start standing up for ourselves. If I’m really deep into something I probably won’t leave but sometimes I need to cut it off, go home, make dinner and log back on. It’s hard enough maintaining an apartment cooking and cleaning for myself and my partner (who is also an attorney). If I don’t assert myself now what hope do I have if/when I have kids?

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I used to make up family-sounding obligations, like a big dinner or weekend reunion or whatever, to justify taking time completely away from work. Now I just say "I have to be somewhere at 7," or "I can't do it this weekend" and let that be my answer. Get your work done and no one should care when you're available - obviously there are emergencies where you just have to deal, but those apply to people with families too. I have a great firm that respects associate time outside of work regardless of kids - they do exist!

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Also.. I am a married woman who plans to have kids. My career is very important to me. Both my parents worked and they had a nanny for me. I think I have some empathy.

That being said, I’m not having kids until I leave biglaw. It’s too much. I don’t want that life. Choosing to have kids while you’re in a demanding job is a choice.

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A1, you could always freeze your eggs or adopt.

You’re blaming parents for your inability to set boundaries with more senior lawyers. That’s a you problem.

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This entire conversation is a good reflection of why so many of my female/parent colleagues have left law firm life.

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I’m not sure this is a great solution. In my opinion, what we need to do is to find ways to make career and life fit together. I genuinely realize I don’t have the answers. But, now that I see the problem better, I think I’m a lot better at working with the people on my teams to make their personal lives work in a way that is consistent with being successful in their careers. No one did that when I was young and trying to raise a family. I’m determined to help the people around me be more successful in doing it than I was. Somehow, I think the first two steps is to discuss the issue with colleagues and to find ways that we can back up one another. The partners need to help by adding more support to a team and by better managing client expectations.

As another associate said - parents protect parents bc they know they all need that extra help/time/forgiveness accommodation.

And, it is an unpopular opinion, but yes, they are getting more accommodation bc of their choices. Your life and relationship w your partner is just as important/valid as their relationship w their kids.

Unfortunately, it’s the way of life though. If you do have a set thing from 530-630, I’d just try putting it into your calendar and saying - I committed to this every day from 530-630. If it’s an emergency, I will handle but otherwise, happy to log back on after 9.

You may get judged and you may not be the star associate. But, that is the same w associates w kids. No one says it but the one leaving all the time isn’t first in line for partnership unless they have that great of a relationship w the head partner.

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Leave when you need to leave. Don’t over-explain. Don’t blame other people because you’re worried about your explanation. Just leave and be accessible by phone or email.

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This is all nonsense that has nothing to do with parenting and everything to do with drawing boundaries. OP, chances are your firm is making allowances for parents to avoid losing them to firms that are less cutthroat. Unless they’re billing as much as their childless counterparts (you), they’re not reaping any benefits their counterparts are not. Remember, partnership is discretionary.

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“I have a commitment from 6-9.” “Appreciate you letting me know.”

I had an appointment from 3-5 today, could have been a therapist, a haircut, meeting with opposing counsel, job interview, or a massage. You either trust me to have appropriate judgement or you don’t, and if you don’t then I likely ought not be working on your stuff.

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I did this all the time as an associate before kids. I know do it as an associate all the time with kids. The real question is does the firm want to keep you. If they like you, they will accommodate you, if they don't they will let you go. Less availability will make it much harder to make partner or be promoted (kids or no). So that is something you should consider.

Also, if you don't understand the difference that taking care of kids is more essential than catching a work out class (and is more highly valued by society (as it should be)) than I don't think there is any helping you.

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*Asks summer associate to write a brief memo summarizing the arguments made in this thread.

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Kids are stinky

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100 percent agree with this. I was once told by a senior associate that my time mattered less because I didn’t have kids. If you choose to have children that’s wonderful, but it doesn’t make your time less valuable than those who choose other life pursuits.

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EVERYONE on this thread needs to watch the sex and the city episode “A Woman’s Right to Her Shoes”

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I am married without kids. I have used the excuse of my imaginary nieces and nephews when necessary to get the same flexibility as my colleagues with children.

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I’m a little surprised with all the responses that say “childcare isn’t a choice.”

What did y’all’s child fall out of the sky? Pretty sure y’all chose to have a kid, knowing you’d have to care for it. It’s a choice. It’s just not one we all made.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be afforded flexibility to care for your child — you should. But it definitely is a choice.

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That’s a stupid analogy. Parenthood is a choice that law firms SUPPORT. That’s why parents are given (limited) flexibility. Because a critical mass of law firm’s most valuable attorneys are parents, as opposed to drunk drivers. As you get more senior and more experienced, more of your attorneys are going to be parents. So, yes, you let them pick their kids up while still continuing to do just as much work as childless colleagues.

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People should have flexibility for their personal lives at the office, but I disagree that parents always just get to leave early to pick up their kids - it’s usually a negotiated thing if it’s truly a concrete expectation.

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Seems like this is more a problem with your firm and possibly your ability to say no than the parents themselves. When I was a young associate, I didn't feel like I could say no. When the partner said at 6.30pm (when I was leaving and had plans) "hey, I need this tonight", I canceled my plans and finished the work. With more experience, I was better able to assess what actually was urgent and how I could set boundaries. Have you tried just putting your foot down about when you need to leave and then when you log back in later emailing (hopefully something substantive or purposeful) just to show you're doing the work? It seems like if you are billing at your minimum and making sure your meeting deadlines and doing good work, it shouldn't matter where or when it's done. At my current firm, which is a very large firm, we have attorneys with and without kids/elderly parents/dogs coming in and leaving whenever they want (if they even come in at all). At the end of the month, they're all exceeding their minimum billables so their "face time" doesn't matter.

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P5 is spot on. As we are having discussions on remote working, this thread makes me wonder what firm OP works at. Pandemic makes us all realize the value of flexibility and that same quality work can be done wherever and whenever. It is a matter of collaboration and not accommodation. It is also a matter of communication. Seamless teamwork can be achieved without two persons being at the firm at the same time, as long as we stand to be team players. The same flexibility can feed to non-parent lawyers for non-kid reasons. To blame the lack of flexibility and the inability to set boundaries to parent lawyers is appalling. Moreover, this “blame” eventually goes to lawyer moms, who unfortunately bear disproportionally more family responsibility than lawyer dads.

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Because some partners were parents once too and empathize that associates with kids work two jobs both of which are necessary and are adding value because unlike your rescue dog, our kids will grow up to contribute to the social security trust fund from which you will benefit one day

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None of my associates have kids. I do not give a rats on how long they are in the office each day. If they leave early to run errands, go to dog park, whatever, and choose to work later in the evening from home, that's their choice. I leave at 4:45 to get my kid from school because he HAS to be picked up. Then yes, I usually log in from home and keep working at night if needed.
If my associates leave at the same time to do whatever it is they want or need to, that's fine with me. The associates do not need to ask my permission to take care of things. They are all adults, and I just expect them to meet deadlines and make sure things get done for clients.
If you have things you want or need to do, and need to leave to do so, then do that? As long as your work gets done, then there should be no issue.

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