{ "media_type": "text", "post_content": "Maybe this is unfashionable... but I'm feeling ok around Trump and his Economic Immigration ideas. For real Consulting anyway - it just means closer scrutiny (which we shouldn't be afraid of) (cont)", "post_id": "588b6cc2f0a7190016f89345", "reply_count": 41, "vote_count": 12, "bowl_id": "552d1d24dc1c586b09d2d051", "bowl_name": "Consulting" }

Maybe this is unfashionable... but I'm feeling ok around Trump and his Economic Immigration ideas. For real Consulting anyway - it just means closer scrutiny (which we shouldn't be afraid of) (cont)

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Firstly, I want to say that we are putting all the ethics aside, and strictly talking economics.. which someone could argue is a wrong thing to do for such an advanced race as we are.. Your assumption of 25% is a bit out of no where.. whatever that assumption is you would still need to verify what that % is from your immigrants under any program to be able to compare if you are adding to the economy.. and again, remember that it's never a 0 sum game despite that a lot of people think about economy in that way.. an increase in low paid workers might actually do much for the economy than adding a lot of high paid workers (who consume a smaller share of their disposable income and a late share of what they consume could be on holidays abroad) On the automation, again, I think restricting immigration is the remedy.. automation will happen no mater what, and it's a good thing since it will allow us humans to move from mundane repetitive tasks to more fulfilling and interesting jobs (like consultants).. however, the change will inevitably be hard on some people and countries as a whole are facing large structural challenges to ensure equal distribution of wealth and opportunities. Trumps vision to make America great again through shitty manufacturing jobs is what will ensure increasing inequalities and a stable lower class in the society.. and increasing wealth inequalities has been proven to hinder economic development (a system that motivates people to work hard because there's a lot to gain will only be beneficial to a certain extent, and don't get me wrong, a communistic system will never be beneficial) Longer at post I've ever written on fb! :)

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So BCG, just to get to the original point on Trumps policies, especially regarding the H1B system.. (there's so many topics related to borders and immigration where Trump is fundamentally wrong, but I want to keep this discussion focused and restricted to economic arguments) There are talks to restrict the number of H1Bs and change the minimum salary to $100k (from $60k). 1) I would not say people earning $60k or more would make up a large chunk of your 25-35% that you are hue is bad for the economy since they consumer more than they produce. H1B requires an employer to sponsor your visa = we are not importing unemployed unskilled workers to the US in ANY case! 2) These people have either obtained a higher education abroad or they have paid for a higher education in the US. All childhood years of unproductivity is absorbed by their home countries. 3) While a significant share of H1B holders apply for green cards and citizenships, a significant share will also return to their home countries, and the unproductive years of retirement will be absorbed by these countries. 4) By directing much attention and resources to immigration as the cause of American unemployment we lose track of the real structural issues in America. I argue that this will only cause an increasing share of Americans to fall behind the development and end up as a cost to the rest of the society. For being the model capitalist country I am very surprised to see so much of the mentality that jobs are handed out to the people that wait for them (and that these jobs should be handed out only to Americans)

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How do you feel when he blatantly lies about facts that are easily refuted?

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Here comes the "he's a racist sexist xenophobic transphobic islamophobic orange tangerine cheeto man child" whines from the kids.

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That's like saying, "My SO lies to my face about being with another person when I saw them together. And I don't know if they're telling the truth about what they do when I'm on the road. Buuuut, that's not a big deal because we both like pizza." You're focusing on the wrong f-ing thing!

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How does that not worry you?? If he can so easily like about something you know is not true, how in the world can you trust when you don't have all the information? How is that not important to you?

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Conservative here... not a big trump guy though, but let's be honest name a president that hasn't blatantly lied about something. And honestly who gives a shit if he thinks his inauguration was the biggest in history, it's obviously wasn't but doesn't hurt anyone.

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The US was built on immigration. Cracking down on exploitative H1B visa companies is one thing, but I doubt he'll stop there - based on rhetoric and draft executive orders.

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@OP So essentially you have no conscience. Ok. Lol. Good for you for being so open-minded and comfortable with policies that don't affect people that look like you. Ironically, this nonsense is going to hurt everyone.

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Lottery based on merit is absolutely an example of tunnel vision. There is a bigger world outside your consulting job, and resources are needed everywhere - from agriculture that brings food on your table to the seamless delivery guy that brings food to your door for $2 tips that you so graciously spare for him.

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....for companies that abuse the principles of the Visa Programs - yep - you're going to lose your advantage, and yes, unfortunately some of your people will get caught up. But for most of us, it's ok.

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Hah! All of those may be correct - I don't think we need to be overly concerned on economic migration though 😳😜

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I'm not passing comment on that. I'm focused on the economic migration aspects of his policy. Sure - facts are facts, and there's no such thing as an "alternate fact" to my mind. He is the President, and frankly, if he tells me that the roads are made of cotton buds, and the moon is a giant spot light - I don't care. I know that's not true as I'm an independent thinking intelligent person! He is still in charge though - for better or for worse.

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I'm an international, and I definitely think the visa abuse should stop. The lottery makes no sense to me whatsoever, and people should get through only on the basis of merit. So that this country retains only the people who can help your economy. I come from a country/culture that is fiercely competitive and I have had to fight for everything I got. It should be the same here when it comes to visas. The lottery system should be abandoned in lieu of programs which focus on everyone's profiles and how they are contribute to the economy.

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Fundamentally open borders and a welfare state cannot co-exist while there are large gaps between countries - both have their pros and cons but I get frustrated when generally speaking the same people support both. The US had open borders when we had essentially no safety net - that isn't going to work anymore unless we go about dismantling it. That isn't to say all immigration is bad, but controlling it certainly seems prudent if we want to keep a social safety net. BA1 - which do you choose?

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@bcg1 -- good point. Totally valid. I choose open borders 100%. I feel for the guy in El Paso who can't support his family just as much as I feel for the guy in Juarez who can't support his family. Open borders would benefit both of them, while a closed border benefits the guy in El Paso directly at the expense of the guy in Juarez.

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If you like free markets, I'm sure you have no problem with employers' decision to hire the people they choose.

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Don't get u boo. U say ur ok with Trumps policies yet the draft order to dispose DACA is heinous? It's contradictory

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@p1 so protectionist schemes are good for economies? Because I think protectionist schemes are really bad for everyone except some of the people being protected and some of the people administering the protection. Protectionist schemes are like when the mafia takes over your neighborhood.

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@d2 Trump's objective is to close the border one way, to benefit the guy in El Paso. He may be able to do so to a limited extent, but even a partial closure has the same effect. @bcg1 I think social security and Medicaid could be sustained by limiting new enrollment. I also think these needs could be met better in a market economy rather than thru taxes, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

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I think people are missing the broad point here.. yeah, there might be some people who are abusing the current system, and it might result in some good people not getting a visa.. but the main question should be, why do we even want to restrict economic immigration? We are getting thousands of smart and high income earners (= high tax payers) moving into to country and fueling the economy! For a bunch of smart consultant in this app economic literacy seems very low.. jobs and macro economics is not a zero sum gain.. when people move in they create more economic activity and jobs, not taking the ones that Americans created...

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PWC3 - I wouldn't be surprised with the "more" open borders, but not open borders - which is a big distinction - ba1 is arguing for open borders not less closed borders (I think). If what you are saying is true I have a great way to make money - all those folks paying thousands to be smuggled into the EU - I can just legally send to the countries with the "open borders" and a better safety net than the US. There are literally millions of people who would jump at that chance which is why I am skeptical such a country exists.

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