Sincere question- as a Pakistani born and settled in the US, I have many indian friends. We generally have some healthy debates. One of the arguments I find hard to debate is that we have some (indians and Pakistanis) have the same forefathers; Arab countries refuse to consider us pure Muslims and our many of our forefathers were forcefully converted. How do you argue it? I feel it’s factual and find it hard to accept.

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Ok one by one:

1. Where are you drawing the line on 'same forefathers'. The Brahmins in India trace their roots to Central Asia, for example.

2. I was born and raised in the Middle East before moving to the U.S. Heard all sorts of crap, but never anyone questioning my religion, not that I would ever seek an Arab person's validation anyways.

3. I think this is the strongest argument here. Is it possible that some of our forefathers were forcefully converted during the hundreds of years of Muslim rule in India? Of course. But on the flip side, even in the broader subcontinent, Hindus outnumber Muslims, what 6/7 to 1. Goes to show that most Muslim kings were very pluralistic and did not force Islam on such a massive scale like the Catholics did in Europe during the Inquisition which practically left not a single Muslim in Spain and a measly number of Jews.

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This!

Arabs don't consider Pakistanis "pure Muslims"? Since when?

I would cede that some Arabs do belittle Pakistanis/desis because they're *not Arab* but I have never ever heard of this "pure Muslim" concept.

Sheikh Muhammad Khalil and his father, sheikh Khalil al-Qari, both Pakistanis, are hugely respected and were imams of al masjid al nabawi and other well known mosques. The Ulema of KSA, Qatar, UAE collaborate often with Pakistani ulema. Many of the modern scholars of Islamic finance and members of Sharia boards in Arab finance and investment entities are Pakistani.

That point there is really off-base and I have no idea where it came from. Its just not valid and doesn't require a response.

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A1 I agree and thats not ok. But OP specifically said that Arabs don't see Pakistanis as "pure muslims" which is egregious nonsense

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Can you back up the statement on forceful conversions to Islam.

Not saying they didn't happen, but in my personal investigation it was incredibly rare.

The Spanish inquisition is a good example of what forced conversions looked like.

In my reading Islam spreading in the South Asia was a function of:

1. Sufis / missionaries
2. Many many Dalit (untouchables) converting to Islam for greater rights
3. Political advantages joining the religion ruling elite. This is also nuanced - you have to remember Muslims were dominant during the golden age of Islam like European civilizations (including colonized ones like NZL / Aus / North America) are today. Becoming Muslim made you part of a global community that excelled in knowledge / arts / crafts / science in Africa / Asia and Europe. It wasnt a coincidence that Mughals, Safavids and Ottomans dominated in unison.

Typically village elders would convert and the entire village would follow due to village customs - one off conversions were rare.

Even after over 1,000 years of Muslim presence and then dominance in South Asia (Muhammad bin Qasim was around 600 to 700 AD) the vast majority of the population remained non Muslim.

Hindu Muslim hatred is also a very post British phenomenon - if you were to look up famous battles like the battle of Panipat you would see Muslims and Hindus fought on both sides of the war. In fact Emperor Akbar's head of the military was a Hindu general.

I'm not trying to excuse Muslim excesses - which clearly took place. But it is important to be balanced in our perspectives - and a generalist statement saying there were forced conversions is patently false.

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The concept of “pure Muslim” doesn’t exist in Islam. Anyone who says that to you or about a group of people is CLEARLY ignorant.

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This doesn’t even make conceptual sense -
Purity is racial (genetics)
Islam is a religion (practice)

Pakistani/Indians may not be pure Arabs but even a convert to Islam can be as much of a Muslim as anyone else.

Imo, pure Muslim is an illogical and meaningless construct. There’s no need to fact check history.

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OP, we don’t have control over history and how we got where we are. Some of our South Asian forefathers were forced to covert, others were the lowest caste untouchable Hindus who converted with the hope of acceptance. What matters is your faith now. We’re not golden retrievers, no one is pure bred 😅

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Who cares what those Arab guys think anyway? It just doesn't matter.

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I am arab and I feel it’s stupid to think arabs got any religious authority to judge islamic puberty of others.

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“Pure Muslims” - what a toxic mindset. If you believe in Allah, the last day, and his prophet - you are Muslim. Plenty of Muslims “born into it” that don’t even pray. Ridiculous thing to say

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You have a desi inferiority complex. Let the Arabs think what they want. At the end of the day, your jannah or jahannum is based on your deeds and piety, not ethnicity or language.

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I also feel women don’t have a voice in Islam; there was a post a few days ago where a couple of folks trolled a woman so severely; I felt pathetic. I think our faith could be a little more flexible but then it might be considered blasphemous.

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I’ve lived in the Middle East as well, I saw way too many polygamous marriages.

Yes the Quran says to get approval from first wife, but in many cases they are threatened, undermined and or manipulated to agree. Like who in their right mind wants to share their partner???

There are enough men to go around for women, the world isn’t lacking men, but we are lacking education and respect

In the 80s in Saudi , when my father worked there., saudis used to call Pakistanis “Harami”.
Fact.

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D1 - linguistically - you abuse someone by calling someone Haraami, very similar to how it is used in the middle east.

That Arab was abusing that South Asian because despite being from the same faith that Arab didn't see the pakistani as an equal.

You are fundamentally trying to make a meaningless distinction.

I agree with D1, the numbers speak for themselves - our forefathers were not forced to revert. The Muslim kings were pluralists.

careful, zionists also make this numbers-game argument to justify their crimes

What on Earth is a pure Muslim? No concept in Islam of a pure Muslim. Only attribute that place someone higher than another is through deen

I mean we probably do have the same forefathers. Why do you want to argue against it?

On the second point - what’s a “pure Muslim” and who gives anyone the right to decide that? A recent convert is as much a Muslim as someone who’s born as a 7th generation Muslim.

Forcefully converted? Who’s to say. Question is are YOU being forced to follow Islam?

Arabs who think that have issues. I always felt like the Indian and Pakistani Muslims are very good Muslims. Especially when I see them serving in mosques. Always cleaning, taking care of the masjid, calling for the prayer, and sometimes even leading the prayer. To me their Iman is unmatched, Arabic isn’t their first language but they learned it and they pray in it. It’s not easy for someone to learn, speak or pray in Arabic and they do it. I love Indian and Pakistani Muslim brothers and sisters

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