The partner I work for has (repeatedly) said the reason the firm has high associate turnover is because the associates who have left “aren’t cut out for litigation” or they were not “willing to make the sacrifices” that the job requires. I feel like this is totally misguided and missed the point? The associates have been leaving because they’re over worked, underpaid and want to be treated well? Or am I just jaded because I’m in ID?

like
Posting as :
works at
You are currently posting as works at
Highlighted IconHIGHLIGHTED

That's nothing more than the company line. You cannot expect honesty from the partners about that stuff.

likesmart

It’s ID. Nuff said.

like

Been in and out of law firms since 2002. The one thing I can say for certain is that a US litigator should rarely be allowed to do anything but litigate.

Unfortunately most litigation groups/firms believe they need to break you down before they build you back up into a litigator. Firms are much better run in the UK. But that’s not important. Basically - it’s difficult to find a well managed litigation group that doesn’t behave like that partner and can keep the lights on. Plaintiffs side can be friendlier, but it’s a Midwest friendly.

likesmart

Incoherent venting from a former life.

Recent IconRecent

I don’t think it’s just ID, though it’s probably worse in ID because of how bad of a sweatshop many ID firms are. There’s a lot of arrogance with many firms’ managing partners who, despite seeing first hand that their bargaining chips are worth less and that associates have plenty of other opportunities available, aren’t accepting responsibility for their role in driving talent away.

like

Insurance defense. Generally people view it negatively.

Not everyone is cut out for litigation. I’m at a plaintiffs firm and no one is checking my hours as long as the work gets done. But there are still several weeks a year where I am preparing for a corporate witness deposition or for a big motion where all nighters and 100 hours of work wouldn’t be abnormal. When we are on trial we work 16-20 hours a day for weeks/months at a time. This isn’t “bad culture” or “out of touch bosses” it is doing what you need to do to get the job done. Most people are unwilling to do this.

like

A5 - they said a corporate rep witness. Different from a normal witness. Easily can take upwards of 100 hours to prep for a big witness like that.

like

ID usually means overworked and underpaid. There’s a reason why there are always openings in ID after law school. People try to defend ID and I don’t buy it. I lived it. No thanks

likefunny

Lol it ain’t just ID. I worked in family law, and it was like this for me. Boutique firm, one owner. They had a revolving door of associates. They only cared about themselves and didn’t respect my life at all. And I’m not talking about working crazy hours in preparation for a hearing or a trial—I get that. That wasn’t the issue for me. This owner poorly mismanaged their time and the associates and other support staff often paid the price for that. Sometimes they would call us into the office on a weekend “just in case” they needed us. Literally told me to schedule doctor’s appointments for when they were out of town on vacation (and I’m talking annual appointments—I didn’t have any health issues where I was at the doctor 1x per week or anything). I schedule annual appointments when I check out from my current appointment, so I can’t do that. Those are just a couple of examples, there are many others. I got to the point where I just didn’t answer the call/email if it was late, a weekend, or a time that I had been told I could take off. Stayed there as long as it took me to find another job and peaced out. When I told them I was leaving they looked at me dead in the face and said I wasn’t cut out for litigation. Maybe. But they were the worst boss I’ve ever had. Not a leader by any means. Definitely someone with some personality disorders that could seriously benefit from therapy.

like

Agreed. I have a friend in big law who works a ton, yes, but she enjoys the work, and maybe more importantly, she really likes and respects her boss, and he respects her. I think that’s the key wherever you are. As the associate, do you feel you’re valued and are you treated with respect? If you treat your people with respect and recognize that they are human beings with lives outside of work, you’re more likely to get people to stick around…

like

Leave, that’s the worst type of excuse for covering bad culture. ID can be great but just like any other practice you need good firm culture.

like

I guess my question from these comments is: if it’s easier for a partner to keep on an associate who already knows what they’re doing, instead of training and on boarding a new one, why don’t the partners treat us better and recognize the workload/culture issues?

likesmart

Your question implies they are actually aware of this. They are completely unaware and indifferent, as evidenced by their shock when an abused, yet stellar, associate leaves.

likesmart

Making sacrifices for insurance defense is laughable. Did you laugh or hold it in?

likefunny

That’s utter BS the partner is giving you—especially in light of the Great Resignation of late where workers are demanding more fairness and balance and quitting if they don’t get it. Partners use associates as little billing machines and will exploit them until they break. Everything they say is subtly designed to make you work to line their pockets. It’s a form of passive income for them and a metric by which they retain partnership status and compete with other partners—totally different ballgame going on in their heads.

like

Partners believe what they are saying.

likefunny

Might be partly true, but probably also comp. And for those basically saying either that firms that don’t pay market are trash or everyone somehow should be capable of getting hired by a market-paying firm or being paid market somehow magically solves associate attrition - that’s not true. Not every firm can pay market because most companies and individuals obtaining legal services cannot or will not pay a first year associate $300/hour or a partner $1k+/hour. Are they not still entitled to seek and obtain high quality representation? Of course they are. And just because a lawyer isn’t making market doesn’t mean they shouldn’t care about their work and their clients. They just have integrity and are fulfilling their ethical obligations. Also some attorneys are not cut out to do the work done at firms that pay market-either skills-wise or time commitment-wise. We do not all have to be equal. But if you are capable and willing to work hard and someone will hire you-that’s great and you should absolutely take that job. For those who can’t or don’t want to, you are not less than another lawyer.

like

I agree with many of your points. But I think the issue many associates today have is the idea that pay should be commensurate with the work/hour expectation. If you’re expected to bill 2200+ and are paid under six figures or just above, especially as a midlevel, you’re probably better off at a firm that compensates it’s employees more in line with the hours expectation and right now they’re all hiring.

The market dictates these things and right now, at least for corporate/M&A and many niche specialties, there are so many opportunities for associates and firms/partners are the ones who are desperate. I think many (not all) partners have been so used to a market where associates were the ones who were desperate and willing to accept less that they don’t know how to adjust or they feel they shouldn’t have to.

like

Damn do you work at the firm I just left because sounds identical to my firm lol

like

Yes lawyers are underpaid often

like

Run

smart

Put it this way, my friend is 29, has a state school communications degree and is an L8 regional warehouse manager making $800k at Amazon. So yeah lots of people moving for much higher paying jobs in tech.

like

…what

like

You may both be right. He’s not saying the firm doesn’t overwork people; he saying the associates left because they weren’t willing to make that sacrifice. But yeah, high turnover is a symptom of a toxic firm.

like

This has a common theme I see here and it's troubling. Without attacking or trying to belittle anyone (because I truly want to help), it seems so many young lawyers at the Associate level these days have a victim-mentality and don't understand "paying their dues." Do you think the partners didn't feel overworked and underpaid when they were associates? Do you think you're worth any more than the market will bear? Part of gaining experience and wisdom comes from going through the grind. Listen to Brad Pitt's monologue in Fight Club ... you are not special. And neither am I. The sooner we figure out we don't "deserve" any more than we EARN, the happier we are. Trust me on that.

funny

It’s a different game for sure. But it’s a different game for everyone. It’s just changed faster/slower depending on practice area and location. But the common result is junior lawyers have taken the brunt of it, and senior lawyers can’t admit the rules have changed without questioning the last 20-40 years of life. Get out while the getting is good, or build your own specialty and book of business, no one makes partner anymore. They build their own business and attach it to whatever law firm provides them the resources they need to service that business (which will change every few years).

Ah yes, the ole the beatings will continue until morale improves approach. How boomer of you.

like

IMO that’s a typical CYA line from a typical ID partner who won’t admit the actual flaw(s) at their firm that are the real reason for high turnover.

like

Related Posts

like
like
like

I am a lead 3D designer in Kansas I was curious what I could be looking at for pay

like

What is the salary hike from staff-1 to staff-2 in technology consulting?

like

London, UK. Currently work in real estate finance for a retail/commercial bank. 2+ years exp in debt (mezz and senior). Graduated 2018 from UK target in Real Estate (around 1/5 modules were finance). Looking to get out of retail and move to corporate. Think IB might be a push but MBD at GS sort of think more likely. I’m doing CFI modelling course to get my skills up to scratch. Any other suggestions? I think CFA has slim to no value in my situation but open to hear otherwise. Cheers

like

Anyone else obsess over your next career move? I’m a senior associate in a niche BigLaw group in DC. I am just now hitting my stride and can really see a path to partnership. I handle my own matters relatively independently, am generating some business, and will inherit a large book of business in my favorite space in the next year or so. The problem is that this isn’t what I want, or at least what I think I want. (Continued in comments).

like

Can anyone describe the McKinsey interview process for the business

analyst position in India?

like

What does a Culture department do on a daily basis?

likefunny

Does BCG do GC for lateral Associates?

like
like

I had an agency reach out to me about a Sr. position but I turned it down. While I think my book stands up to Senior books, I’ve only been at mid-level for a year. What is a healthy time cont’d...

likehelpful

Anyone at Cisco willing to give a referral? Happy to DM info

like

Anyone work at Putnam? Thoughts on culture, wlb, reputation, etc.?

like

Is there anyone on here that uses the Pearson reading series MyView. just need a little help

I love Hispanics!

Post Photo
funnylikehelpful

Hi Guys,

Do EY give joining bonus?

like
like

I have drank 49 out of the last 90 days. Typically two glasses of red wine at night. Is this an issue? I do want to lower my drinking but have been struggling with doing so honestly.

like

Are there any companies having trouble finding data scientists?

like

Additional Posts in Law

I'm a student but I got an offer at a top 3 firm (by revenue). Trying to decide between that and a small firm in my hometown. I'm not sure what I should do at this point.

like

When your firm requires billable hours, how are they calculated? Actual vs realized (I.e. what you put on your billing sheet vs what is billed to the client). Does your firm differentiate? Which number do they go by? My mind is somehow not comprehending how some big law hours are under my small firm requirement?

like

What unexpected specialities have you all picked up along the way as a junior? Somehow I became the go-to guy on tax assessment appeals because the other guy went in-house.

like

Just cleared conflicts for a big law firm so I can officially leave my toxic mid-size insurance defense firm. I’m planning to give notice Friday, but should I get the start date first? The recruiter said they’d like me to start 11/15. And I seriously want to give notice soooooo bad. I’m so excited to leave that I literally cannot think straight 😂

like

Whoever said employers don’t care about grades and transcripts after your first job was a liar. Every lateral position that I’ve applied to as a 3rd year has requested transcripts. Why do we lie and tell grads that employers don’t check transcripts when they do. My coworker, a 5th yr, had to submit his transcripts also to lateral job. Side note - it speaks volume when multiple associates are trying to lateral at the same time

like

I took adderall while I was studying for the bar and it really helped. I don’t have a prescription but am wondering if this likely means I have undiagnosed ADHD but don’t know how to bring this up to my doctor. I definitely have trouble focusing in general and have always been pretty dozey/aloof but have somehow gotten by and am now a third year associate who is doing okay without it. Do you think getting Aderall could help even though I’m doing fine? Maybe I’ll go from good associate to great

like

Advice to avoid ethics violations and unauthorized practice of law in the following scenario. I am licensed to practice in PA and live in PA. Recently accepted a 100% remote non-legal role for a national org based in CA but does business in all states. No lawyers in house. Recently, they casually asked me to review and suggest language in govt contracts. Should I tell them I can't or possible opportunity to renegotiate a legal role in house but with CA license?

like

Associates, if you turned in work that was subpar how would you want the partner to approach you to tell you about it?

likehelpful

After you’ve pulled an all-nighter, how do you get through the next day? Caffeine? Exercise? Take a nap? Quit early?

like

Should an employment lawyer consider getting a PHR/SPHR certificate? Is it worthwhile?
A lot of in house opportunities seem to be looking for them

like

Easier to go from litigation to transactional or transactional to litigation? I’m currently in litigation but wondering if I I could make the switch later in my career.

like

So I have this really strange satiation. I was asked to review a service agreement, and some attachments, governing website design and hosting client is buying. Literally 25 pages of the most ambiguous, inconsistent, supplier friendly thing I have ever read. Supplier insists using its documents (starting from scratch would have been Faster). The total deal is only $5,000 (which is an insanely good deal) but the time to fix these documents is going to exceed that. How would you deal with this?

likehelpful

2nd year thinking about making a move into a compliance role at a large public company. Concerned about two things: 1) is it too early to go in house given that I’m 3 months away from 3rd year and 2) is compliance a dead end within in house roles?

like

Hi folks. Mid level corporate associate thinking of making a move into the tech industry (preferably in a legal-adjacent or non-legal position). Any thoughts on how to make the move, such has what types of folks to network with and skills I should obtain?

like

Does anyone else hate weekends? Like let’s pretend we don’t have work to do so we can please our family & kids but meanwhile our anxiety is brewing inside? I’m never more relieved than to sit on my computer on Monday morning.

likefunny

Any other humble public servants here? How’s life?

like

Apps for keeping track of billable hours?

like

My dad's friend over the holidays: "are you one of those 'save-the-world' lawyers?" Me thinking about this now: "ahahaha"

likefunny

Please comment photos of your home office or WFH setup!

I’m finally getting my own room to convert to a home office, but I’m sick of looking at unrealistic online photos for ideas. Don’t care if your space is organized or messy or whatever, I just need practical inspiration!

likehelpful

Tips for getting back into the swing of things after paternity leave?

like

New to Fishbowl?

Download the Fishbowl app to
unlock all discussions on Fishbowl.
That was just a preview…
Sign Up to see all discussions
  • Discover what it’s like to work at companies from real professionals
  • Get candid advice from people in your field in a safe space
  • Chat and network with other professionals in your field
Sign up in seconds to unlock all discussions on Fishbowl.

Already a user?
Login here

Share

Embed this post

Copy and paste embed code on your site

Preview

Download the
Fishbowl app

See what’s happening in your industry
from the palm of your hand.

A phone with Fishbowl app

Send download link to your phone

OR

Scan your QR code to download
Fishbowl app on your mobile

By continuing you agree to Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

Messaging rates may apply

Download app

Sign up for free to view this conversation on Fishbowl

By continuing you agree to Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

Already have an account? Log in

Sign up for free to continue using Fishbowl

By continuing you agree to Terms of Use(New) and Privacy Policy(New)
Messaging rates may apply

Already have an account? Log in

For account settings, visit Fishbowl on Desktop Browser or

General

Legal