The word “toxic” has been constantly used in threads on this app. IMO, it is becoming obnoxiously overused in describing one’s feelings towards their current or past employers/work environments/bosses. I get the sense that most of my younger colleagues (I’m a 1st year), constantly label their experiences as toxic simply because the job did not live up to their expectations or standards. How do you define “toxic”? Curious to see how people define the word in the context of working for a firm.

likefunnyhelpful
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Anyone want to bet OP is a toxic individual?

By toxic I think people mean someone that has significantly negative work and personality habits/traits/behavior. Like minimizing other peoples experiences for no reason at all, for example.

likefunnyupliftinghelpful

I meant the author, not A1

I don’t think the word is being overused. I think there are a lot of things we used to take for granted, like the fact that we are supposed to work when very sick and constantly be available, and now we have made enough progress in society that people are starting to question it. That’s a good thing. We shouldn’t tolerate certain norms just because we did in the past.

Also, many law firm partners receive little or no training in management or leadership. That’s bound to lead to environments where communications aren’t clear or constructive, or where employees aren’t treated like individuals. It’s not surprising that would lead to workplaces that are pervasively stunting or unfair, which to me is toxic, We used to kind of just accept that as the way things are but again, we’ve progressed enough as a society that we are questioning it.

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It’s hard for me to know about a thread I haven’t seen but I could see scenarios in which that kind of blanket not even considering them could be evidence of toxic attitudes. 5 jobs (looking for a 6th) in a dozen years could mean 2 years at each job which doesn’t sound insane to me. Again, I haven’t seen the thread so I don’t know. But I think the attitude that exists in law that you’re supposed to put up with a lot of stuff and endure and absorb silently to be taken seriously is really toxic.

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Hey OP. This a safe space and it might be the only medium where can openly complain about the toxicity they face in their day to day role. I know that's certainly the case for me. Our industry is notoriously toxic, most ego filled partnerships are. With the me too movement and the work/life flexibility afforded to us in light of the pandemic, maybe this big law's watershed moment is coming? Maybe in the next 10 years it'll be the norm to not have supervisors throw their keyboards across the office at you, not be screamed at, not be ignored by your colleagues for weeks and iced out because you didn't want to be the ring leader's cover during a conference that you were also attending. Maybe I'm being a bit too hopeful here, but now Gen Z is joining the ranks and taking no shit, I'm hoping things will change for the better.

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OP and A2 - I think we get paid what we do because we're meant to be available 24/7. We're prioritising work over our life. That's fine with me. We don't get paid to be a human punching bag or to be belittled or suffer worse. A lot of egos go unchecked in law firms. The fact that we accept it as the ugly part of the job is where the toxicity lies IMO. My hope is that the industry accepts that and then we can hopefully move to a non toxic system where, like OP said, the focus is on us getting the work done. I got hope. I certainly try to encourage my Gen Z-ers to set boundaries. We're all adults after all.

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I think what OP is trying to say is that what some people label as “toxic” is really just mildly inconveniencing.

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Or s/he is inconvenienced by other people’s reasonable feelings.

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Most “toxic” bunch of “tone deaf” “gaslighters” I have ever seen on this thread.

likefunny

This is in the law thread (not big law).

A toxic environment in one where staying is detrimental to you physical and mental well-being.

What causes a toxic environment can be different for different people. Or it can be toxic for everyone. Big Law (most practice groups and firms) is the later.

Working long hard hours for reasonable compensation is not toxic. Knowing your staff works long hard hours, and then (consciously or unconsciously) making it worse is toxic.

For example, you can see the difference between a top 50 US firm and a Magic Circle firm of similar prestige in terms of employee morale but not profit. Not that their aren’t outliers, but it’s pretty striking.

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"very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way"

Most workplaces are toxic. We have workplace norms that are just starting to be questioned. I don't think the word is being overused.

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Toxic literally means not just bad or unpleasant, but poisonous or very harmful or unpleasant in an insidious way.

If I were to use it figuratively, it would have to be in a situation where not only does the job just generally suck, but sucks in such a way that goes beyond norms and is bad enough to have meaningful negative consequences for those exposed to the environment.

I think most of those on these boards who use that phrase figuratively apply it to a much broader set of environments than I would.

likesmart

Exactly

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There is no objective, universal meaning to the word toxic in the mental health context. It’s entirely subjective. It’s based on an individual’s own perception of a situation influenced by their race, gender, past traumas, mental illnesses, etc. It’s impossible to define the word toxic in this context, though there are plenty of examples you can find just by searching the word in this bowl.

That said, the word is used so often because our profession is toxic to a lot of us, as demonstrated by the high rates of substance abuse and suicide among lawyers

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How is A4 a lawyer?

You can be demanding without being demeaning. That’s the difference between a good boss and a toxic one.

likesmart

And that is what some of the people commenting here do not seem to understand.

I agree with OP. It reminds me of the in-house
Kid fresh out of law school who was going to go in and demand he receive a paralegal’a salary on top of his because he was assigned to cover the paralegal’s job for three weeks while they found a new one.

funnylike

Temps exist. Why was he covering the paralegal job for 3 weeks?

An environment in which screaming, demeaning, accusing, cursing, insulting behavior is acceptable. Where discrimination of any kind is either permitted or the standard. Where work requirements are unreasonable, and employees are called out for objecting to any of the above.

likesmart

Agree with the prior posters. Toxic means harmful to your mental health. Not just you don’t like it, but to such a degree or in such a way that it degrades you or your self worth (or something more serious). Some examples.

Constructive feedback, not toxic. Screaming at you, toxic. Belittling you or making you confess that you’re a piece of shit, toxic.

Telling you that you need to improve, not toxic. Telling you that you don’t deserve this job, toxic. Telling you that everyone else is good at this and you’re the only problem, toxic.

Pressuring you to never take your legally allowed vacation days, toxic.

Hope this helps.

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I come on here to learn how not to be toxic lol

funny

Completely overused. Just check out the resident gaslighter on this thread, A1.

helpfulfunny

I have noticed this trend too, #toxic is mentioned everywhere lately. Perhaps this is a trend in connection with the great resignation?

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Maybe it has something to do with the word having taken on a different definition for a younger generation?

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The way Britney Spears does.

Toxic, in my experience, refers to when individuals pursue their own interests at the expense of others. I.e threatening others for reporting them, immediately blaming others before understanding the facts.

Yeah, that’s just an A-hole. You might not have ever experienced an actual toxic person. Toxic people make everyone around them feel smaller and also create conflicts with and between everyone. They drain the energy from a room and create tension.

#triggered

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