University of California colleges will no longer be allowed to consider ACT and SAT scores from applicants, after a superior court judge ruled that the "test optional" approach gave privileged, non-disabled students an advantage in admissions.
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/news/another-blow-to-the-sat-4207929/
What are they suggesting they evaluate students on then? Aren’t GPAs subject to the exact same advantages + differences between high schools? Rich kids get their essays written or at the very least edited by experts. ACT and SATS are the only apples to apples comparison data point colleges have
@bain one thing I didn’t love in it was they pulled out ACT/SAT and left in the other ~10 variables to show it only accounted for 3% of the 28% success indication, but they didn’t do it for the others to actually show apples to apples how little or large it is in comparison
I went to a very bougie private high school, did very well on the SATs, and I support this entirely. Every kid at my school would go to the same $400/hour tutor, who would program every necessary equation into our calculators so you’d truly have to have 0 brain cells to get less than a 700/800 on math. Money overwhelmingly affects the SATs, and I’m glad we’re beginning to realize that.
This is an interesting debate and the points made by both sides seemed to stay above the waist. Which is really cool these days.
I went to college after finishing military service and my school along with most had waived SAT and ACT tests for Vets as an incentive aspect of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. My scores would no doubt been too low for the school I attended but I also approached college like a job - same as most of the Vets I was around. We all finished early and (generally) upper portions of our classes.
These tests have subjective portions (which I didn’t know until this thread) and aside from determining a good school - which impacts future salary - don’t seem to be predictive of success (successful person will score high but a high score doesn’t predict successful person). Aside from reading this debate I have never researched or looked into this but from the arguments presented here and my own experience lead me to think removing the test requirements is a good move for a university system to embrace. Not without consequence but still a good move.
This is a good post and thread!
I wonder if this will have the intended effect. On the one hand, I understand the argument of the SAT favoring those with privilege. However, as the child of immigrants who grew up without a lot of privilege, I felt like the test was a way to show off given I didn’t have access to other extracurricular opportunities.
Won’t this just place more emphasis on extracurriculars and grades, areas where privileged kids also excel?
Maybe this is an elitist thing, but I know very few people who shelled out money for tutors and extra studying for the SAT. Maybe the ones paying are the people who get into the “top colleges” though. I just don’t think you need to go to one of those schools to succeed. I went to a state school, did well, and now I’m in a great spot.
I think too many blame the system. Yes it has issues, but there are so many opportunities in this country.
Rising Star
As a UC system alumn, I am not at all surprised that they managed to do something so dumb
Wtf California... so are we going to admit on one question now..
What minority you belong to (because Asians don't count!) and how much scholarships you would like with your admission?!!
Pro
Best public schools in the nation are part of UC system and it’s by far the best system. I highly doubt that removing SAT will diminish the prestige of the endless awards and recognitions the universities receive.
Also I didn’t realized that the SAT was indicative of anyone’s academic or professional potential. It’s a test you take when you’re 17 relax.
Pro
Will they remove the GMAT from Stanford?
Hey fellow Asians - no one cares, and no one will help us, so get over it and keep outworking the situation. 30 years ago, Asians were notorious for having the best grades, but weak extracurriculars. The recent Harvard case showed that Asians now are strongest in extracurriculars as well. Higher education is our NBA and NFL combined. We will always beat down any obstacles that are in front of us. Stop expecting sympathy - you don't need it, and it would only make you weaker.
Won’t these privileged kids just find other ways to game the system?
You mean like the super wealthy parents who got caught in the admission scandal recently? 😆 🤣 😂
Lol I guess they’ll just throw out GPAs too because those can biased by privilege too? As someone raised in California, I’m sad to see our state failing so badly.
No, while GPA might still suffer from some of the same biases, the extent to which SATs skew because of socioeconomic status is much larger, and well documented.
Chief
Better start constructing the wall between California and the rest of the country for when people start fleeing. We don't want them ruining everywhere else
Rising Star
They’re starting to do it here in Texas now too...God help us
This is really a way to hurt low income Asians. Test scores are the best way for them to move up.
For example, at Stuyvesant highschool, one of the top magnet schools, admissions is based purely on an entrance test score. SAT average is also absurdly high at 1490/1600.
The school is 70% Asian, with the majority having a low income. Basically, if you’re a low income Asian, you’re screwed and have no way of proving yourself. You’ll have no test scores to show AND you’ll be treated as more privileged than a white person.
Easy solution, don’t identify as Asian.
Liberal arts schools have been doing this for decades and I’m proud to have gone to a school that had this policy over 15 years ago. They made SATs optional, but they continue to receive stellar candidates from across the world. The entire notion of dismantling the SAT as a core admissions criteria was to create a level playing field because college admissions realized that richer, wealthier kids are disproportionally positioned to do better in standardized test scores.
There’s a ton of research out there that explicitly shows how the SATs are creating a wider wedge between segments of society.
I, for one, did horribly on the SATs, but went to a top school and graduated at the top of my class. My grades had no correlation with my SATs. Period.
Good point but doesn’t apply to me. I was ranked 2 in high school out of a 350 class, had several APs, tons of extracurriculars, led 7 diff clubs, knew 4 languages, and got an almost full ride that allowed me to attend a top LAC. Agreed, I wouldn’t have been able to attend without scholarship $, period.
Pro
As someone that didn’t come from a privileged background and had multiple commitments, I scored avg on the SAT out of pure luck. My friends meanwhile paid tutors and took classes and scored significantly higher than I did. It gave them an unfair advantage. If you happen to have a similar background as me and also happen to be a great test taker that’s great, otherwise I agree that gives an unfair advantage to kids that come from privilege. The criticism that it’s stupid to remove this requirement will likely come from 1) someone who came from a privileged background 2) someone who didn’t but is a great test taker already so it doesn’t matter. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s a small step in the right direction.
Pro
Couldn’t have put it better myself. Thanks C1
Chief
I am ok with this. These test don’t provide insight into what you bring to a whole college experience. It shows you know how to take a test (which some people pay a lot of money to prep for and learn how to beat).
Sure, but actually, along with GPA, is one of the best predictors of college success.
The court decision is just because of disabled students.
Otherwise SATs are the fairest kind of tests, objective and the same for everyone.
The racial group that does best on these tests are often underprivileged kids with parents who did not go to college, did not have access to free tutoring, nor even speak English. No test is completely fair, but the SAT is not some arcane mystery that can only be passed by the initiated. Anyone who wants to study for it can do so. Wanting to study for the SAT is a good indication that someone will want to study for tests in general, which is a large component of success in college.
Chief
“I’m a bad test taker”
You mean you are a great student until pressure is applied and we get to find out what you actually know.....
Pro
You guys are completely missing the point. Read any of my comments I’m this thread
I've never been a fan of college, so I'm OK with such a change. It's just more dilution to an institution whose value is already nothing but a rubber stamp. I already ignore college on resumes / interviews.
But as this trend spreads, I pity the people who will pay for college a decade from now. Whether that be parents or tax payers.
Fwiw, I try to ignore college, but care about Major, GPA, and especially work experience and independent projects / accomplishments.
I'm looking for self-driven people who can start from scratch and deliver a specific result. I can teach them my industry. But I can't teach drive & resourcefulness
Just wait till they start implementing privilege scores and every other thread turns into how they can game that.
Pro
Renting out my apartment in the hood - $4,000 a month and comes with a sad story you can write about in your entrance essays.
The SAT is the same test given to everyone.
GPA is not and impressive extracurriculars can easily be faked.
For reference, I went to a crappy high school in a rural area and the opportunity to excel on an exam identical to the one given out in wealthier areas allowed me to demonstrate intellectual ability in a way that performance in classes at my school might not have.
While I agree that SAT score can be skewed by wealth, I am genuinely curious about why everyone thinks GPA is more fair.
GPA is taken into consideration based on the school a student is from, with students from higher ranked schools needing lower GPAs. A 4.0 from a neighborhood high school is not treated the same as even a 3.5 from a top high school. At my high school for example, you essentially had a 100% admission rate to Notre Dame even with a 3.0 GPA.
Here’s a list of high schools that UCs accept students from. You can quickly see that some high schools have disproportionately high acceptance rates relative to the population alone.
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/admissions-source-school
Pro
I agree with you I think we’re talking a much larger socioeconomic problem in our society.
how about a system where you keep the test scores, but also a stronger form of affirmative action where say 40% of slots/seats are reserved for minorities. another 20% reserved for low income and the rest is open for everyone else. kids would still need to compete within their buckets ...
my apologies if this has been suggested and torn down already.....
Capgemini1, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Race, minority etc. should never ever be a factor or it will only lead to same issues as seen in caste-based reservations in India and many other similar failures.
At most, if at all, it should be tied to individuals economic status. Granted that there are majority black and other races in lower economic segment, there are also some very rich and affluent millionaire families from those very same races who enjoy the best privileges amongst all - being born into a super rich family. It make no sense to tie reservations to race.
But more importantly higher education is not where reservations should exist, it should only be on merit. Addressing systemic and social issues in an effective, lasting fashion needs to happen at the root. Access to free and quality education, child care, meals... so that all kids get opportunities to prepare and then qualify for merit based higher education enrollment.
We must not compromise on quality in favor of race when it comes to our doctors, engineers, teachers, scientists, ...some would say pretty much in any field at a professional level. Combining reservations in higher education with increasing focus on racial/ minority mix when hiring is ⏰💣