{ "media_type": "image", "post_content": "What are your thoughts on the court ruling in VA? Are we allowing religion to enter and set policy in schools, and by extension, other areas of American life? (Link: https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/byron-tanner-cross-reinstated-transgender-pronouns-virginia/2695040/?amp)", "post_id": "60c0163516aa9700213ad803", "reply_count": 212, "vote_count": 12, "bowl_id": "5c751b9f2f6b98001bc666f8", "bowl_name": "Teachers" }
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(Part Two) either to express belief in Christianity and practice it or leave the country. Similarly, this proposed policy, in Virginia, originator of this event and this discussion, would mandate that one use language, expressive a particular belief position relative to human sexuality, despite one’s own views relative to human sexuality (views held quite possibly, as the administrator of this discussion and author of its initial prompt question has failed to perceive, entirely outside the ambit of the religious, for example, on the basis of biology, evolution, or other personally held convictions or rationales, by persons of all races, ethnicities, and original nationalities - to say nothing of those who also may parallelly hold religious convictions, which are likewise protected under the Constitution, as natural universal human right, which the author of this prompt also seems to have failed to perceive). This is an abusive and coercive proposition, that erodes the very foundation of democracy and individual freedom. Thirdly, the origination of this debate has begun with the proposed mandate that public schools, at least some, a governmental entity, should provide instruction on the the sexual to the minor children constitutive of their student body, and, additionally, in doing so, convey a particular view of human sexuality, that is in disharmony with biological observation, whose theoretical discourse has originated with a professor of philosophy, philosophy of culture in particular, Dr. Butler of Berkeley University. To this we respond that in no way minor children should be taught the sexual; carefully considered, it is clear that to discuss the sexual with someone else’s child is the essence of historical accusations of the corruption of youth and very closely related to child abuse; what is more probably is that it is, in its own right, constitutive of a form of abuse. It is not appropriate to discuss the sexual with the minor children, of others moreover, that are in our charge, and temporarily and conditionally. Furthermore, what has been proposed here, in Virginia, is to discuss such with children that are in the fifth grade, nine, ten years of age - prepuberty, furthermore! This is gross misconduct toward children, and should be stopped roundly! Finally, the question posted for discussion, inquiring, “Are we allowing religion to enter and set policy in schools, and by extension, other areas of American life” is quite astounding. Instead of addressing the issue primarily at hand, namely that a person, and who is a teacher, like us, has been fired for expressing his position relative to a particular topic (a clear violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution, and a natural universal human right), nor even the issue secondarily at hand, that a governmental entity is attempting to mandate speech, nor the issue tertiarily, yet radically, at hand, namely the proposal of the teaching of the sexual,

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(Part 3) a particular historically novel view of human sexuality, to the minor student children, of others. Through the opening of the discussion on this topic with such a query, the administrator of the discussion has “led,” as attorneys are sometimes accused of doing, egregiously, by asking, ungermanely, I might signalize, if religion is, in effect, over permeating the classroom, which expresses, through insinuation, the interpretive accusation, and the conclusion, in the very initial debate question, that this has been the motivation behind the occurred, completing ignoring the Constitutional and human rights that have been violated, and doing so with such stylistic nonchalance that it leads one to suppose that no violation of individual rights, much less of a Constitutional or fundamental order (such as a human rights violation), could possibly exist here. Nevertheless, as if this were not sufficient, the administrator, author of the discussion question, concludes the same through interrogating if religion (in effect, not an essential element of the event) is not only determining policy in schools but “by extension, other aspects of American life?” The question is exaggeratorily accusatory, to the point of being absurd. In response, religion is not determining the policy in schools, which are markedly unreligious institutions, if not hostile to it, as seen in many, even recent, legal cases, by design and in practice; therefore, there is not a rational fear of a radical religionization of national life, through the public schools, which the author insinuatively suggests, it would seem, would be prejudicial to public life, not a neutral position, at all, I might underscore. In fine, the person who wrote this question has done so in an egregiously leading mannering, and is either enormously unreflective in the contemplation of the topics come for consideration, or has an enormously large ideological axe to grind; in either case, this author has produced an rhetorically abusive question, as through the very position, which is supposed to be neutral and objective, they have actually posited stong opinion position, and one that is extreme in its position and departs form a pre-drawn conclusion, that religion, in particular, is markedly and unduly influence life in America, and apparently through the overtly and even systemically secular public school system, and directs our intellectual attention to the, apparently deontologically necessary, impediment of the continuation of its unwarranted conquest-like march on American society; this is an enormously rhetorically abusive question; moving forward, the crafters of such discussion questions, need to take careful note of this instance in order to not lead discussions through the publication of discussion questions that are elaborated in such a manner that they express an interpretive position relative to the topic at hand, in the very query whose ostensible purpose is to initiate the discussion.

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I’m not ducking your question, but, I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. This case what not about what he did in his classroom or at the school. He spoke at a public forum time at the school board meeting. He was suspended immediately after that. The reason he was reinstated is because teachers are allowed free speech outside of the classroom. And he is allowed to believe whatever he wants, at least until the law is changed to make someone have the “right” beliefs. Check the Supreme Court case Pickering v. Board of Education (1968). Quick summary: “teacher’s exercise of his right to speak on issues of public importance may not furnish the basis for his dismissal from public employment.” So back to your question, do I think we are allowing religion to influence policy and other areas of American life? Yes. And I’m worried that we won’t be able to root out Secular Humanism because it has become so influential.

likesmarthelpfuluplifting

And acting like a decent human being.

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Why can’t he believe what he feel is right!? It’s like everyone feels like everybody have to be political correct about accepting LBGQT. No one should be forced to go against what they believe regardless of the side. Everyone should respect each other but don’t have to be forced to be accepting of everyone lifestyle choices. Or forced to go against their beliefs.

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... and capitalism is not guaranteed to align with Bible verses in all instances.

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Religious Freedom acts/laws exist to allow bigots to get away with their bigotry. Anyone can believe anything they want, but acting on those beliefs is where the judgement should be focused. If he returns to the classroom and creates a hostile environment by his purposeful antagonizing of these students, free speech will not and should not save him. Nor should his religion. We de not exist in a bubble. Once his actions impact another person, he has violated their right to be. Someone else existing does not impact his right to hold his interpretation of religious beliefs.

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It really would be a hostile environment if he deliberately ignores the student's wishes and uses the pronoun he wants to instead of what the student wants. He would be deliberately antagonizes and causing pain to a student. He's not allowed to do that.

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This teacher was put on leave for speaking at a public forum not for anything he did while on the job. The courts were right to reinstate him and now, if the county or school does anything, it can be seen as retaliation. On another note, let us stop and think about this for a minute. We are talking about children. Children who are not yet fully cognitively developed, and we are going to let them make such decisions as this??? I mean, people can't legally get a tattoo until 18 without parent consent, legally change their own name until 18, join the military until 18, buy cigarettes or adult beverages until 21. The reason we have those laws is because children and adolescence do not have the cognitive development and life experience to be able to make such serious decisions. So developmentally speaking, children should not be making the decisions and get to chose one way or the other. If a parent is making these decisions for the child, as mandated reporters, we are required to report it as abuse because the parents are/can be emotionally, mentally, and physically causing harm to these children who are not yet ready to developmentally understand what they are being put through or the effects of the decisions at that given time. Religion and politics aside, that's the educational reasoning.

likesmarthelpful

Good points!

If anything, the trend is going the other direction. Religion has steadily played a smaller role in our society, especially in public schools. This is a case of one teacher expressing individual beliefs. You can disagree with them, but it shouldn't cost him his job. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you support the right of a student to request being called by a different pronoun, then you should also support the right of a teacher who doesn't believe it is right. Now, if a student legally changes their name and/or goes through the process of biologically changing their gender, it would be a different story.

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Illinois High School says, " If you support the right of a student to request being called by a different pronoun, then you should also support the right of a teacher who doesn't believe it is right." This is completely illogical. A student, indeed any person, has the right to define their own identity. No one has the right to deny that. If they do, they are subject to the consequences. In society in general, that pretty much means being called out for being inappropriate. In a work setting, those consequences may be more severe. I would say that the District jumped the gun, so to speak, for dismissing the teacher simply because he said he would not follow the district policy. They needed to wait until he violated the policy, was given the opportunity to correct his misbehavior, and did not do so. Then they can fire him, as they well should.

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I find it troubling that many who believe people should be more accepting of others are so intolerant of those who don't see things exactly as they do. You want to live according to what the Bible teaches? Fine. You want to live according to a different world view? Fine. Aren't those choices afforded all of us by our Constitution?

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"Fine," until California ed code says a teacher can be terminated for not going along with that "world view" and are gag ordered not to tell the parents of a kid who has decided what that world view will be. Everyone in the school must now shift his/her own world view to fit the child's. The inmates really are running the asylum.

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There are two genders, male and female, regardless of what some people think. Biology trumps emotion and feelings.

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Why are you commenting when you have nothing to add? Please keep up with what is being discussed or remain profitably silent and learn.

I think he should go work for a private Christian school that would support his beliefs, rather than foisting them on the public at large.

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California 2 - You're being ridiculous...No one is talking about unicorns or such. This is a serious issue. C'mon, be respectful.

It looks like this teacher is under attack for not playing along with this given student’s fantasy. Everyone wants to be politically correct, and never mind that this political correctness might affect this given child’s future. Children do many things to be accepted by their peers, be cool and to fit in. These choices are not always thought through. Instead of rushing to the conclusion, maybe student’s parents need to be involved and see how they feel about their child wanting to be referred as the other gender. So glad this teacher spoke his mind; he is the one who truly cares for his students.

likesmart

You are way off base MMS1- No one is ‘pushing’ anyone to do anything (surgeries/hormones/, etc) . No judgement , showing respect, advocating for justice and love will NEVER do harm to a child- ever!

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Totally, the teacher and the students rights and beliefs should be heard and respected as so. The students beliefs is not higher or more important than the teacher.

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This is not a question of whose beliefs are "higher" or "more important." It's a question of school policy. He has to follow it.

It’s called free speech and is guaranteed by the constitution

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The Constitutional right to free speech means that any individual gets to say whatever they want to say. It does NOT guarantee that there won’t be repercussions to those that spew ignorant viewpoints.

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I think the teacher is right! We have too much to do at any given time than to have to remember every individuals personal pronoun preference.

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Wow! Just wow! Maryland… First, I taught at a high school with the highest pregnancy rate in the country at the time I taught there. Second, drugs were so prevalent that it impacted the very fiber of the town. The chartels brought their mess to that town. So, yeah, I know the mess society has created. It does not nor did not make me less compassionate or more frustrated with my students. I didn’t judge them for “experimenting” with the realities they live within. If they don’t know how their bodies work, that’s a failure of education. We used to teach sex education in a variety of life science classes and in health science classes but now we leave to parents who have no real knowledge either. It’s just another talking point for people on 24-hour news channels and their debates of society’s morality and lack thereof. The fact that their exploration is, based on word choice and tone perceived in you responses, so inconvenient and fosters some resentment for you concerns me.

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I support this teacher. Science is science. NOWHERE in Science can a Human change their genetic code at will. We are educations first.

likesmart

I have never meet someone with a different right and wrong perspective with issues of this nature. I have many friends and family of that persuasion and even they tell me they know its wrong. When someone is confronted with the truth they know in their heart its wrong. I know many others that later in life have regretted decisions they made while they were young. They will tell you they knew right from wrong but chose the later. These same individuals will tell you they wish they would have had someone help them while they were still young. The definition of indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. Teaching someone the truth is not indoctrination. Indoctrination is when you force something upon someone without discussion. Teaching is presenting a person something then letting them dialogue to make up their own minds.

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Right now, it’s a VA issue that MN, MS, & the rest of the country has no say in. What happens in state education systems is that state’s business. But were I forced into Mr. Cross’s shoes, I would politely take the same stand he took… first with my principal, then the school board, then DOE.

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The APA bowed to political pressure when removing transgenderism. Many people conflate transgenderism and homosexuality. In the past, being same-sex attracted was wrongly considered a mental illness, so the transgender lobby took advantage of that to guilt the APA into saying transgenderism wasn't a mental illness, either. But it is. For example, autogynephelia (experienced by straight, mostly middle-aged men who "identify" as trans lesbians) is comorbid with narcissistic disorders and sexual violence. In other words, criminally insane.

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All students will never be treated equally because everyone doesn’t hold the same beliefs. So, someone will always be offended.

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Exactly. So… why even try to treat others kindly? Why acknowledge anyone’s humanity? Let’s just all be assholes to each other instead.

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The court placed an injunction on LCPS ruling to fire this teacher until December 31st. Public schools are not private corporations so the laws are often different. In response to Michigan High School 1, why would you want the teacher fired immediately for "misbehavior" before the court decides on the issue? That would be an example of intolerance by the school system or teachers that supported his immediate firing. The teacher was not demanding that all teachers and staff must address trans students by their biological pronouns. His lawyers are only arguing for his rights to address students by their biological pronouns based on his view of science and or his religious views. Muslim students are allowed to wear head coverings at schools but non religious students usually cannot. In the past 245 years, students were addressed by their biological pronouns whether they liked their gender or they didn't. I'm trying to understand how all of a sudden doing so is extreme? Science says that there are only two genders.

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I get there is a lot of debate on transgender and nonbinary children and how much is the decision theirs vs. their parents. I personally don't have an issue using a child's preferred pronoun or new name, though I do ask them to give me some grace as I might slip from time to time. It seems that the LGBTQ+ community is the one that some feel it's still all right to discriminate against. While I don't feel he should have been suspended for speaking up at a board meeting, I do feel he's using religion as a shield for being uncomfortable.

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Religion needs to get out and stay out of public education. It is not an educators job (in public education) to preach at their students or to use their religion to disrespect others. If you use religion to discriminate and perpetuate bigoted viewpoints and bring that into the classroom then you should not be in public education. Private, religious schools exist and you would probably find yourself much happier there

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I think religion discussions are interesting. I think it’s fascinating that both sides of faith (theist vs. atheist) have to prove they are the one true way. Many have faith who are in the public realm but rarely do they speak of it due to its distraction from their policies, research, or agendas. Somewhere between the two extremes is likely where many fall, rolling their eyes at the zealots on the wings. That being said, while many founding fathers had faithful personal lives, they were able to restrict it from the governmental policies for they saw and respected diversity and individuality even in those days, though clearly had their own issues to work out regarding their own personal hypocrisies. That does not diminish their ideals that inspire many Americans to consider and work toward those ideals. My two fields are science and social studies. I have always loved learning and teaching in those fields. I have never struggled to find faith in those fields. I have struggled with organized religion, especially those that expect people to put reason aside. God (the deity I choose feel free to substitute per preference) imho, created us to question and wonder so my faith never was at odds with my scientific view. Many scientists (Einstein & Curie included) are assumed to be atheists but most were more likely agnostic, disapproval of organized religions, not the existence of a force greater than themselves and recognize that science does not have the ability to test the supernatural, aka, the existence of God one way or the other. Science is grounded in the natural world. It was Einstein who said: “The more I study science, the more I believe in God.” As Galileo who said: “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” All of these great scientists we’re definitely anti-religious and it is clear in their writings that is true. Does it make them atheists? Perhaps. Maybe their few concessions were simply made because they knew society would accept their scientific work more easily if they seemed to have a connection to God. Who can really know any historical person based on documents alone?

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The ruling clearly mentioned his religious beliefs so clearly, separation of church and state is dwindling.

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*Christian (re: God)

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Here are some facts to keep in mind….. Teenagers who were allowed by parents to have sex reassignment surgeries often don’t make it to adulthood. These types of Surgeries have not reduced the risks of suicides. Transgenderism is a mental illness and should be treated as such. It should not be coddled and encouraged. Just like we don’t allow young children to eat grass when they believe they are a horse or a cow. A 14 year old cannot vote, join the military, drink alcohol, gamble in a casino, drive a car, purchase firearms or make other important decisions. They rely on adults. Yet now we have teachers. school boards and parents telling children we are going to allow them to change their gender, and then acknowledge it publicly in a classroom. We now allow them to make life altering changes to their bodies if they want to without interference from adults? When a teacher or adult is forced to call them by a preferred pronoun it perpetuates the agenda for courts to allow teenagers to get sex surgeries without consent from psychologists, parents or guardians. Many transgender adults have regretted their surgeries at young ages and now are very unhappy that parents or teachers did not try to stop them.

likesmarthelpful

I disagree. Your slippery slope reasoning is flawed. Allowing teens to explore their gender orientation by being called their preferred pronouns does not lead to surgery. Some trans teens are comfortable with waiting as long as they can live their authentic gender in their day to day life. You could actually prevent early surgery by addressing students by their preferred pronouns. I have seen zero evidence that trans people having had top or bottom surgery are at more risk for suicide and there is plenty of evidence that unaddressed gender disphoria dramatically increases suicide risk. How many student deaths will you contribute to?

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