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While I think it’s stupid not to get vaccinated, I do think it’s ridiculous to force a vaccine down someone’s throat or risk losing a job and access to society.

Only issue I have is “who decides” what should be forced or cornered into vs not…I truly want to hear the opposing views.

likefunny
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I think the opposing view here is that as members of society we all regularly participate in shared norms, both those enshrined in law and social. We accept limits on our behavior all the time (e.g. wear seatbelts, mandate paying taxes, mandate parking rules, mandate inoculation to attend school, etc.) The real question is where to draw the line. It’s not a zero sum personal freedom vs. social responsibility game, we have always sought to balance the two. We have generally drawn a line legally, though, when your expression of personal freedom brings direct and significant harm to others (I.e. by taking actions that increase the likelihood that you will spread a highly infectious disease to others.) Now, do we have rules/laws that say you can’t go to work or school with a cold? No, because the consequence of that action is generally recognized to have a limited level of negative impact to others. But, what about going to work unvaccinated in the midst of a global pandemic of historic proportion that has resulted in greater loss of life in the US than both World Wars combined? It’s obviously subjective, but I think there is an argument to be made that that kind of action poses a significant level of harm to others, both by potentially infecting your colleagues, and the possibility that they in turn could infect their family members who are either too young to be vaccinated at this point, or those with weakened immune systems. The problem with the slippery slope arguments here is that it’s never been a zero sum game and we’ve always been “on the proverbial slope” as long as we’ve been humans existing in society with agreed shared norms.

likesmart

Sure! I mean, personally I do think it’s wrong to go to an office or crowded public space if you are unvaccinated due to the possible harm that could come to others as a result of that action, for the record, just as I think drunk driving is wrong for the same reason.

like

I’ll give an example from HIV/AIDS because it was a global pandemic, similar to COVID. The differences are, HIV/AIDS was a blood-borne infection, whereas COVID is an airborne one.

To prevent HIV/AIDS, there is no vaccine yet. There are different methods of protection:

1) Wearing a condom: Similar to wearing a mask on your face to reduce risk of getting an airborne pathogen, you wear a condom for reducing risk of fluid contact.

2) Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis: Taking a daily pill reduces the risk of getting infected with HIV through chemical means. It’s because a daily pill has two substances that block HIV from replicating in a person’s body. COVID doesn’t have that option yet.

3) Post-Exposure Prophylaxis: HIV-positives can take a daily pill that will reduce the viral load in their bloodstream, and they reduce the risk of their partners contracting HIV. In COVID, there are some antibodies but none of them work 100%. COVID, different from HIV/AIDS, in many cases, heals completely without medications. COVID kills the most vulnerable among us.

4) In the future, when an HIV vaccine will be made and approved for use by FDA, people can get an HIV vaccine and gain an immunity against HIV. This option does not exist yet for HIV, but it exists for COVID.

Now, if someone says “I’m HIV+, I don’t wear condoms, I won’t use prophylaxis, so I’ll keep sleeping around with whomever I want!”, that means they will infect many more people and will possibly cost lives (If infected folks do not have access to antiretroviral treatments and if they aren’t aware of their seropositive status).

Let’s get back to COVID again. Unvaccinated folks who refuse to wear a mask and who do not get the vaccine, are similar to the people who refuse to wear a condom, who refuse to use prophylactic drugs, and keep spreading HIV. There are 1.2 million HIV+ individuals in the US, some are probably uninsured and not able to access antiretroviral treatments.

In public health, there is a responsibility on an individual to protect himself/herself, and also a responsibility to protect the public. If you’re refusing a vaccine and refusing a mask in the midst of a pandemic, I don’t know what to tell you in a polite way.

likesmart

Lab leak hypothesis is pretty much BS. Even 20 years ago, before these SARS and MERS outbreaks, I was aware of coronaviruses as a virus class. We are not talking with “If that is the case”, we look at the data.

Scientists speak with data. Speculation is not our way of communication. We understand it when people express hesitations or concerns about any pharmaceutical product, not only a vaccine.

Some individuals may not prefer to use even a very basic painkiller. Some people may also avoid going to a doctor. People have a right to refuse medical treatment. People can have a right to a hunger strike, starving themselves to death.

BUT, when there is a pandemic, when there is an extremely infectious disease that threatens and kills other people, you can’t just say, “Oh, I’m refusing masks and vaccines, but I will still participate in indoor activities”. No that’s NOT the case.

If you don’t know that you carry HIV+ but you are still sleeping around without a condom or a prophylactic drug, you are being negligent, but that negligence can kill people.

If you don’t know that you contracted COVID but are still joining indoor activities without a mask on, you are being negligent and you do have the risk of killing people.

Yes, in many ways, COVID and HIV/AIDS can be compared. If you have a mask, you take a basic precaution against COVID, but it is not enough. Mask isn’t 100% effective, it may not be preventing all droplets unless it’s N95. It is the reason why people combine vaccines and masks to reduce the risk even further.

If you use a condom during sex, it is a basic precaution but it’s not enough, condoms can break and they do break. That’s why, people combine condom and prophylaxis to reduce the risk of transmission even further.

It’s like seat belt plus airbag. There is a huge difference between the pandemic precaution and driving precaution though. Seat belt is a must. You can’t just say “I’m not wearing that seat belt”.

And, you can’t just say “I’ll drink and drive”. It may cause accidents, and you can kill people.

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Bit wait, in the US we have had required vaccines for years. They aren’t mandatory in that you aren’t required to get them, but you are not able to eg attend school, take part in many activities etc. Most are given automatically at birth or when young. I haven’t seen the same people pushing back on those. This virus has killed many people I know.

I fully support anyone’s right to not get the vaccine so long as they also agree to not attend public workplaces, schools, gatherings, restaurant, stores etc. It’s their right to not get a vaccine but is also sane society’s right to refuse to accept the risk they have chosen to create.

likesmarthelpful

Lol > 99% of all deaths are now from unvaccinated people but the vaccine isn’t a final solution 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

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What is the difference than mandating shots for school? Having the shot mandate is in the best interest of the country / world and will save the most amount of lives.

I am all for individual freedom and what not but there is a point when the good of the many outweighs your individual freedom to choose whether or not to gets vaccinated.

likesmartfunny

Well the original question from OP was whether one agreed with your employer mandating the vaccine.

Also what’s the difference between the government mandating and private business? Well one thing is capitalism. We allow businesses to serve whomever they want, within reason of course discrimination is never ok. But before someone says “well aren’t you discriminating against someone who doesn’t want the vaccine,” no no it’s not because you are not a protected class…

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I’m vaccinated but it certainly can be a slippery slope. Vaccines now. What’s next? Once any person / entity / government gets new power, it never gives it up.

likefunnysmart

SDE1, because it’s about control and not about health or safety.

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We already do this with schools and other government services. Private businesses have even more freedom to do what they want than the government with these issues. I don’t see the problem. In theory a business could say that they won’t employ vaccinated people…but no business is doing that for obvious reasons

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Everything is being compared to Nazis, it's a default setting for ignoramuses.

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Insane to me to equate requiring vaccines for schools to getting into a bar or a clothes store. The only requirement for getting into a store today is being a free person. I’m not for changing that paradigm especially when I don’t think it’s going to fully solve the problem - Israel’s heavily vaccinated and cases have still gone way up. Vaccines will help but if you don’t have children vaccinated and you have even a 20% breakthrough rate you aren’t at herd immunity.

These mandates are definitely different and the only reason people are for it is because they agree with it this time. But the next time the government wants to do something similar and they enforce it through private business and you’re against the policy you’ll have no choice but to comply. They’ll enforce it through private businesses (Biden has called on businesses to mandate) and there won’t even be a law to fight against.

Pro vaccine. Anti mandate.

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Polio vaccine didn’t wait for herd immunity either

like

Here is the problem. Covid is an issue that requires COLLECTIVE action. The vaccine is not 100% effective. Partial vaccination of part of the population will allow it to continue to spread and every new person who catches it is a chance of a new variant arising. We can't protect the vulnerable or stop the pandemic if large swathes of the population, US and worldwide, remain vaccinated.

So what do we do, OP? Refuse to force vaccinations and doom our society to a future of mutating variants and continue periodic lockdowns? Do we "sacrifice" the old and infirm because measures to protect them are "too hard on the economy?" Or do we do the easiest route- get as many people as vaccinated as possible until we come to a herd immunity world wide?

likesmart

The failure of capacity for collective action on COVID (never has so little been asked of people to benefit themselves and the world and they still can’t do it) does not bode well for the kind of collective action, sacrifice, and investment needed to avert catastrophe from climate change…

like

But they are the government and they are here to help you.

likefunny

Someone has read a history book😂😂

like

It is not ridiculous to force society to comply with public health measures and this practice is as old as civilization. The Old Testament has a choice passage that tells sick people to mask up and quarantine. In the Middle Ages country borders were closed to prevent plague and entire towns were closed off from society for the greater good of others. Washington forced his troops to get inoculated and no one put up a fuss about personal freedoms. Even animals act differently during pandemics to prevent further spread. Protecting the group from illness is essential to the survival of the species and of civilizations and is decided by whatever social systems are in place. My hot take: antivaxx beliefs are antisocial behavior.

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I'll take it one step further: it's straight up bioterrorism at this point

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Who is forcing a vaccine down throats?

Am I missing the news coverage of armed bands of nurses cruising the streets in tanks? Strapping unvaccinated people to chairs and then squirting vaccines down people’s throats? Where can I go to see this use of force?

like

Our current president said it recently. Other firms are with threats of suspension. See the thread from Alvarez and Marsal for example

I see it more like regulations to help manage risk in the society eg. seatbelts and kid car seats are mandated to protect, Driving under influence is an offense since your decision to drive drunk is putting the society at harm

like

You do make a great points, thank you for your views (probably one of the few people who responded rationally without stating it’s right or wrong)

like

The slippery slope was the first vaccine requirement. Now government intrusion into our bodies is standard practice. We are just empty vessels to be manipulated for other people's benefit.

likefunny

You’re acting like vaccines have never been mandated before 😂 We didn’t slip into authoritarianism after smallpox, polio, measles, etc vaccines have been mandates for basic activities for decades now, literally stop being so damn dramatic

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I'm with you OP, I'm genuinely surprised that people always fall so vehemently on one side or the other of a complex societal issue like vaccination and view the other side as completely ignorant or the 'enemy'.

I got vaccinated as soon as I could. I don't personally relate to people who are avoiding it, but I'm not so arrogant as to say people are 'wrong' to make a different personal choice than I did. I'm fully aware that vaccination rates have a major societal impact (herd immunity and eradication are real), but to use that reasoning as the sole logic to justify forcing every individual in a 'free' society to submit isn't something that I think should be taken so lightly as people seem to. If we go that route, what gets defined as the mortality rate 'cutoff' where vaccination wouldn't be required? To be fair, vaccines seem to be VERY safe, but there are still side effects with all vaccine technologies to date, and they can be serious, so it's not as if vaccination carries absolute zero risk.

Maybe it's the free-market libertarian in me, but I think private entities mandating vaccination strikes a happy medium. The state isn't explicitly forcing it, and I do think private individuals and entities should generally be permitted to compel actions or behavior that don't violate the law. I'd fully support my company mandating vaccination (with caveats for immunocompromised pts, anything else that makes practical sense); in a way it helps define a corporate culture, and would likely self-select for individuals with the same outlook, which might be the best outcome. All the non-vaxxed people can flock to the companies who welcome them with open arms :)

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Great point and perspective, thank you (not being sarcastic, you truly do make a good point)

“While I think it’s stupid not to wear pants outside, I do think it’s ridiculous to force someone to put on pants or risk losing a job and access to society.”

like

First pants and now this vaccine. Text book definition of a slippery slope

likefunny

We are taking in millions of people from other countries. Are those people being given the vaccine prior to entering? The answer is NO, I think that issue should first be addressed by the government before forcing citizens to get vaccinated.

like

1. People do not have a right to cause harm to an entire population of people.
2. Companies aren't making a political statement. They are protecting their employees and customers, and their core business from staffing problems related to absence. Further, they are protecting all employees from the unvaccinated creating a toxic risk pool that causes significant increases in healthcare premiums.

like

1. mRNA technology has been developed over more than a decade. The technology is not new.
2. In the history of vaccines, one has never resulted in side effects more than several weeks after being put into the population, much less 1-2 years. Ever. Polio vaccine issue was identified almost immediately. It's not the nature of how vaccines work. We have a huge sample size and no evidence of severe long term effects. But we know the immediate effect of not getting vaccinated is much higher risk of mortality, and putting the entire system and economy at risk. The 'long term side effect' concern is an anti-Vaxer political talking point, and maybe those are the ethical concerns we should be more worried about. Also, why are the people so worried about long term side effects of vaccines, but jumping in line (or even self medicating with animal dosages) of ivermectin, hydroxychloroquin, etc? Or why do drugs come on market all the time with far smaller trial populations that people jump on the bandwagon for, and are frequently the same people against this one vaccine?
3. It's not unethical for the private market to protect itself from death and disease. It is unethical for people to brazenly expose others to disease for a political cause.

like

It wouldn’t be forced down their throat, it would forced into their arm….

likefunny

Common sense shall prevail. And common sense = get vaccinated.

like

Agreed, one of the best responses provided with the least words. Thank you

As a general reminder, in 18 months we’ve only heard medicine is the answer and not one recommendation around ways to boost immunity through exercise or healthy living. Obesity is an extremely correlated co-morbitiy for covid. I think it’s ok to be 5-10% skeptical. I’m vaccinated, but money and medicine aren’t always aligned in the long run

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