Coronavirus Work-life

Would you shut down the entire economy to save one life? What about 1,000? 50,000? Like where is your limit? I think that is the main question in all this that is uncomfortable to think about.

likefunny
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Holy cow this is a disingenuous question. You shut everything down to prevent the spread of virus. There’s no other way to do it. That’s how you stop a virus. You come out when it’s over. Funny story - “money” and the “economy” and such is made up stuff! Not real! A human construct. As evidenced by the way we print and move Money as needed. You know what is real? Death. You can’t lie or argue your way out of this.

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likesmartfunny
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My plan is to pay all my debt off and move to a less expensive place to live. This roller coaster is making me queasy and it’s time to get off.

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Yeah, nope. This is not the main question.

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likehelpful
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Many in this thread are calling OP’s question stupid. Am I the only one to think about what its meaning is in a non-corona world? Because then it seems pretty interesting

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likesmart
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Obviously, it’s prompted by the pandemic, but I also took the broader meaning. I think it’s an interesting, provocative and unsettling thought.

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This doctor’s Twitter thread is worth a read.

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likefunny
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I think we know who it was and it probably wasn’t a mistake lol.

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Actually the real question to OP is would you sacrifice your mother to save the economy? And your father? And your siblings? What about yourself? Like, What’s your limit for how many people directly related to you that you’d be willing to sacrifice. Including yourself.

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likesmartfunny
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EY10: reading comprehension right back at you. I wrote “you are guaranteeing their lives to a greater degree.” People are dying with respirators, but at least they have a chance. Death rate is way higher for people without and who need it. That’s why (I feel like a broken record here) China’s and Italy’s death rates were/are so much higher, because their healthcare system couldn’t handle it and above a certain baseline the death rate spikes. Staying at home means we might not hit that point. So yes, you are guaranteeing that they have a much higher chance of living.

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This is a very stupid question. This disease is absolutely CLOGGING healthcare systems around the DEVELOPED world. Which means that until we have a cure for this, we will have people dying from this and also ALL OTHER DISEASES that cannot be treated anymore because all hospital beds are being used to treat this crap. Great! This means a reduction in workforce AND demand. And then it gets to a point that people won’t leave their houses anymore due to fear. Shut everything down for a month, flatten the curve. Then we’ll slowly get back to normal.

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Two months may be more realistic, but agree with everything else you said, A1

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Let’s stop looking at lives/deaths as numbers. I think that’s the first issue. Let’s look at this from a human aspect first.

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likesmarthelpful
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You can revive economy, you cannot revive corpse.

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likesmart
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AD1 Id rather feel crappy and worth more dead than alive than actually be dead. Get some perspective. Go take a timeout until you’re a rational adult again.

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This is such a double edged sword. One side of the debate is if you take away restrictions to boost the economy, you risk losing hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of lives to this virus. On the other hand, if the economy goes into a nose dive, unemployment can shoot up. If unemployment shoots up and people begin losing healthcare coverage, how soon before they won’t be able to afford their medications & proper medical care? This could also lead to a plethora of deaths. I think this question should more so be on what is the balance between these two options, not how many lives you’d give up to spare a dollar...

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Honestly, you just highlight why our healthcare system is a failure. Pay to play means everybody dies from the poor contagious people who can’t afford to see a doctor.

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It’s incredibly complicated. Without vital social programs to ensure the health and shelter and food needs are taken care of in an economic downturn... then shutting down the economy will take a toll of lives as well. One type of risk might be easier to quantify than the other. If we were more committed as a country to protect those who cannot protect themselves this moral quandary would be much easier to answer.

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Only solution.... gotta save em all.

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likehelpful
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EY6 and A3 are correct. At some point, the indirect human cost of stopping the global economy will exceed the direct human cost of COVID-19, as people lose their livelihoods and can’t afford medication or their mortgage or food.

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EY2- not what I’m saying. But if you graph human cost vs time for COVID spreading vs global shutdown, eventually they will intersect - they won’t be parallel lines. Question is when. P1- historically I don’t think “there is no need for lives to be lost due to economic slowdown” is true - you can take steps to mitigate, but eventually someone needs to bear that cost. Also need to think about everyone in supply chains that will be impacted - it’s not just US workers or citizens, and not all countries would make the accommodations you mentioned. It’s a global question and I don’t think you’re doing it justice with such a dismissive simplification.

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We trade lives for economic growth constantly; it’s just a question of scale #capitalism

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True. It just happens in the dark at a slow rate with low visibility. If we make that trade at a grand scale in broad daylight, liberal free market capitalism will be done in my life time. Radical ideologies on the right and left of the current order will gain new adherents and the liberal global capitalist order of the middle won’t survive. Who knows what will come next.

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The people I work with 😖

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It’s funny the lengths that people will take to save the unborn vs what they will do to save people already here. Pretty hippo critical. Money over life seems always to be the answer no matter what.

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It’s because the vocalist proponents of “Get back to work! Save the economy!” Are the same vocal talking heads that are “Save Life! Stop Abortion!”

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I think the trade off is — How many people will die from the virus? vs How many people will die from the consequences of a prolonged economy shut down? This way it is measured similarly. Obviously it’s a wicked problem and most of us consultants are on the better end in both situations.

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This question is definitely beyond my knowledge, but I’d imagine folks are concerned now because of the spike in unemployment. To be honest the first thing I thought about was spikes in things like HIV. People in poverty tend to disengage from society, care less about their health, and become reckless. On top of that many poor communities are less accepting of gay folks causing people to be in denial for seeking treatment or preventative care. I didn’t really think about white people or the middle class.

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Would you sacrifice your life to save the economy and everyone else? You're talking about sacrificing other people. Right now, let's say you die and the economy starts doing well, is that good with you? What about if it's more than just you, like you and half your family?

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If the economy demands the knowing sacrifice of human life, what's the point? All of this is supposed to serve humanity, but we've twisted it around to where we have to serve the systems and some of us will literally be human sacrifices to the system. This highlights the inherent problems of how the global economy is arranged. It's insane that there's even discourse suggesting the loss of 1-2% of the population is okay because that's what's necessary to keep the system going with minimal disruption.

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I'd rather be working from home (or not working) because we're on lockdown than not working because I'm going to a funeral every day.

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What EY6 says. An economy in tailspin has it’s own mortality effects. For every 1% increase in unemployment, 1,500-10,000 more people die (range is due to multiple studies finding positive correlation, but disagreement on the level). Bad economies have adverse effects on mental health, crime, addiction, moral/ cultural norms, a longer time to recovery, etc. Both have death costs, so there’s no moral high-horse here. I imagine that someone has already done the math to determine where that balancing point is. It sucks, but it doesn’t make it any less of a reality. It’s a scary time. I hope you all stay safe out there.

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likehelpful
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No it doesn’t. I agree there are indirect costs to both. I just think comparison requires acknowledging that for both. When many of these people leave the hospitals crushed in medical debt, they could wish they didn’t recover.

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I never should have clicked on a thread with 124 comments. I know better 🤦‍♂️

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funny
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Lol I wrote this post and didn’t check back until today. Wtf I had like 200 notifications

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