Visual Storyteller
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Pro
👀 we changed the cover art
Rising Star
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Rising Star
Ugh. So much work. 😩
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We need a Late Night Confessions bowl
Rising Star
Up late working on a pitch. 5 beers in. AMA.
Chief
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Rising Star
Yes, this is many folks’ concern and why gold standard leave policies treat birthing and non-birthing parents equally (in absence of government stepping up)
Chief
Yep, this is one of the benefits of parental leave both parents, having a child becomes much less of a penalty to women.
Enthusiast
Here’s a hypothetical - Company X is closing the gap towards equal pay, but not offering men paternity leave 🤦🏻♀️
Pro
Men have had the advantage forever. Bull crap. And even if you believe that two wrongs don’t make a right
Your concern is that a company with a stupid parental leave policy will also make stupid hiring choices?
Visual Storyteller
Well when you put it that way 😂
The way you've phrased this makes it sound like there shouldn't be a push for pay equality bc it'll make companies less likely to hire women bc of beliefs about motherhood, but the reality is that any company / hiring manager who has these kind of beliefs is already doing it - pushing for pay equity isn't going to make them start.
Part of pushing for equality is pushing for parenting to be seen as an equal responsibility, not just women's work. Research on Scandinavian countries shows that paid paternity leave, particularly when its mandated paternity leave, is one of the biggest things you can do to create gender equity in career progress
Visual Storyteller
100% aligned with your point — definitely don’t mean to come across as opposed to pay equity
Or, push for men to have an equal amount of leave days under paternal leave too. Then there would be no difference in risk from a company’s perspective since the amount of child-related leave would be equal between both genders
Visual Storyteller
EY1 explained better than I could’ve, but my views are completely aligned with this.
This is also illegal.
Not saying it does, but the threat of a lawsuit is definitely a deterrent.
Chief
It seems to me like parental leave policies won't make much of a difference. If a company wouldn't hire a woman bc they are worried she might take their sightly more generous maternity leave policy, they probably are just generally biased against women who might go on maternity leave and the extra leave time is relatively inconsequential.
On the other hand, if a company wouldn't discriminate because someone "might" get pregnant regardless of the leave policy, it seems like a stretch to think that the leave policy they provide would really be the tipping point, you know?
Chief
Definitely agree with you there - it's infuriating to see the people that will do everything they can to make sure any progress is offset in some way.
My personal take is that companies making more leave available for men will ultimately benefit women by giving the new moms more of a break and hopefully reducing the idea that women are always the ones taking time off to care for kids. Unfortunately I think it's unlikely to influence the people who are already biased against women, but still worth it for the other reasons alone!
This already happens in corporate law extensively.
Visual Storyteller
That’s depressing. But looking at the rosters of partners at white shoe firms… can’t say it’s particularly surprising?
I guess in your scenario the company would look at potential fathers and assume they are career focused only and don’t plan to take time off when their spouse has a baby? In that case would you even want to work for that company? (Husband and father of two who both took extended paternity)
Visual Storyteller
Yeah I did likewise — what I’m seeing though is plenty of firms offering less leave to fathers (or phrasing it “secondary caregivers”).
Do I want to work for any given company I do? Not really 🤷
1. Most likely for like jobs in professional services have had equal pay for a while - the average women makes less than the average man because there are fewer woman at the top of the pyramid
2. Back in the day pay was very unequal and hiring was still very sexist
"fewer women are at the top of the pyramid" aka The Broken Rung. until that's actually fixed, pay equity is a fallacy.
Rising Star
It’s not just maternity leave. Women are much more likely to take a break in their careers or drop out entirely to care for children. So most or all of the costs attendant to recruiting and training are lost, and then you’re back to square one. That said, it’s still important for companies to make the effort because it’s such a vast pool of talent and there are plenty of women who do not ultimately drop out (and obv there are some men who do).
Visual Storyteller
Yeah I guess my take here is that companies shouldn’t be in the business of trying to influence or predict that decision.
I would be all about a national program to insulate firms from the costs you describe… but that basically means funding public adult education in a way we haven’t been comfortable with for 300 years.
Yes this happens. That’s why we have an EEOC and lots of labor attorneys.
By “we” I mean universally. I haven’t faced this in my companies.
I did have a male employee once ask for better maternity benefits. He believed it would be easier for him to hire women. And he was right. Issue was we were a small startup then and couldn’t afford it.