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Anyone knows about EY GDS hirearchy?
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Very normal at the larger, more “prestigious” big NYC firms (on the bad teams there). The good news is everyone quits or is fired in 3-5 years. There’s some statistical outliers, but more 90% of these lawyers leave for better jobs. This is why.
I mean, look. She has a role in this, too. Have you told her that her relationship with work makes you uncomfortable? Kicking off that conversation is a bit necessary.
I don’t think everyone is like this, but because of her seniority she does not have as much control yet. It will get better in a few years, before it gets worse again. Perhaps she also feels she’s still on a steep learning curve or has to compensate for something else, or it could be her personality that she likes picking up a lot of work, or it could be the firm, practice group,…
OP: midlevel is the worst time because she probably needs to start managing down (juniors), she needs to keep managing up (seniors, counsel, partners), and also still do a lot of work herself. A lot of people crack and leave biglaw at this specific stage because they try to take everything on themselves, rather than learn to say no or how to delegate appropriately. There is no management training in biglaw either so if she’s never managed people before, she probably has no idea how to juggle the management aspects of her work effectively while doing her own tasks
Yes, my big law experience was like this. Some practice groups have day to day schedules that are worse than others.
Totally depends, but these does seem excessive (even at my firm).
so that should be a wake up call then
It’s totally normal in the V10, especially M&A. That said, it’s not sustainable and can take a toll on her health if she doesn’t figure out a way to delegate/slow down as she becomes more senior.
A15, do you bill every minute you work? Lol. Speaking from experience, this type of schedule is not uncommon unfortunately
What’s a “big 3” law firm? You mean biglaw?
To answer your question, yes this kind of schedule is not abnormal.
This is normal if she is currently on active deals or litigation (eg prepping for a trial). It would not be normal for this to continue for more than a few months.
I worked at three AM100 law firms for two decades, 2000 - 2020, one close to the top, another a few slots down, and then a large "boutique," which worked its way into the lower third. When I first started, my schedule was typically 8:30 am to 9 pm every weekday (except on Thursdays, I worked until 1:30 am, so I could get ahead for Friday, leave on time, and maybe have a weekend). I had to work weekends regularly, but I managed to get a weekend (or almost all of one) at least once a month. Although the weekdays stayed long, the weekend work eased over time. And the workweeks in years 10 - 20 were not as long as in years 1 - 10, if that helps. As an employment attorney, I handled litigation, counseling, and collaborated regularly on employment-related aspects of M&A work; I can validate what others have posted in response. There is a saying, "the law is a jealous mistress." Big law practice demands A LOT of time (I billed in excess of 420 hours in one month; I worked months without weekends; and I worked 34 hours straight - trial prep); it's the nature of the work. In no other profession (perhaps other than a prison) is there someone on the other side actively trying to counter or undo everything you're trying to put in place, which means you're likely in for surprises (until you become "unsurprisable"; I'm allowed to invent words at my level of tenure, ha). It's intense, it's demanding, it's also enthralling to those who love the details. I say all of this because it doesn't ease up in terms of the demands on time, but the nature of the work shifts - as another post notes, you learn to manage, delegate, and sometimes just say "no." Court deadlines do not wait for anyone, nor does a client with a need for emergency injunctive relief. Unfortunately, long hours and limited life is just the way it is. If she doesn't work that hard, someone else will. And I can say with some degree of confidence that the law demands far longer hours than banking (my best friend is a banker).
In litigation, it’s only like this with a pending deadline.
Other times, the associate has to set boundaries and push back — especially if the firm is giving her low-quality work and insisting she be on call after business hours for low-priority assignments.
Chief
Do you not trust what shes telling you? Do you think she's lying that others do not work as much?I dont understand why you are asking this here unless you dont believe her. Seems like a trust issue between you and her. Because what if the answer is yes, its true, then what? Are you just okay with it?
Thank you all - this is very helpful to calibrate my expectations a bit. Truly appreciate the candor and sharing.
It may helpful to consider if roles were reversed. Would you expect her to understand your work schedule being demanding for a few years while you build your career?
This is likely a temporary phase of her career, and hopefully will set her up for good exit options. I would focus on helping her succeed, perhaps by finding ways to make her life easier and not by placing more demands on her.
The number of people calling this normal is disturbing. I've worked in biglaw for six years and I have never billed 15 hours in a day even once.
Success in biglaw is a war of attrition. To win the war, she needs to treat herself and her loved ones as her most important clients. That means making self-care and personal relationships non-negotiable every single day. She'll last longer, make more money, and have more meaningful relationships if she changes her approach.
Not normal unless you’re talking about like wachtell
Yes that tracks. That is the culture at big law firms/East Coast urban areas, and the firms that tend to represent 'big oil'/major companies, etc. They treat their workers like they treat the planet. Associates make a ton of money, but at a price. Lawyers at nonprofts, on the other hand, make 1/3 or 1/4 of the money, but tend to have their weekends, and end work by 6 or 7pm- with the rare weekend work (at least on the west coast). Everyone has to pick their brand of poison. At that rate, most people would have to retire early with their earnings, or literally die at their desk.
Do you pay your apt dog fee?
Fortunately we don’t have dog fee! But yes there is a dog :)
Depends on the firm and practice group. M&A friends work like this a lot. In litigation it tends to come in waves.
My work at a non-profit is like this 💀
Depends on practice I guess. In patent lit I hardly ever work past 7 pm unless on trial. Usually end like maybe a bit past 6.
It is almost certainly like that for most people at lots of the biggest firms.
But I think it’s worth asking why she feels the need to be at a firm like this when there are lots of biglaw firms in the top 30-50 where life is not like this and pay is exceptional.
If the goal is to be a partner at the highest paying firm, then fine, that’s not achievable elsewhere.
But just to be clear, there are real paths to partnership at firms where associate pay is milbank scale and PPEP are over 1 million.
Not normal