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Coach
I think generally the types of deals/cases they get to do and the roles they get to play. I’ve found in smaller shops juniors get more responsibilities and generally get to draft/revise/negotiate the definitive documents earlier vs at larger firms with bigger junior classes the juniors tend to do more rote work for the first several years. The trade off is if a person who works primarily on deals/cases of a certain size they wont have the necessary exp when they move to a different shop that handles deals/cases of different sizes. Typically why people say training at a biglaw firm is best is because many of the lessons you learn on a larger deal/case can be applied to smaller deals/cases but not the other way around. I’ve found that the sweet spot for juniors is at NY V50s—they get more WLB but greater responsibilities than than V10 juniors but also deal with large transactions of various types. - V5 senior associate
Subject Expert
I mean, depends how much you value those gatechecks. Obviously it’s not 100% of v10 juniors are better than 100% of v100 juniors and there are duds even at v10s, but on average, if the v10 is super selective about grades, school, resume etc, you’re going to get more talented juniors there than at the v100.
In terms of experience they get, also varies wildly. I’m at a selective v10 that’s perpetually understaffed. Our juniors all have top credentials, generally super smart and motivated, and because we’re so busy they get the opportunity to perform tasks above year level starting their first year. I was at a v50 earlier that was less selective and that was more regimented about what first years vs second years vs third years etc could do. Had some all star juniors there too but not as good on average IMO.
100% agree w no faith on partners to teach. No idea when they became like that.
Qualify of life
So I was at a lower ranked law firm. I’m years ahead of my comparable high ranking classmates. I was running deals when they were redlining drafts.
Coach
In my experience at a top ranked firm, my counterparts from lower-ranked firms (at co-counsel or opposing counsel) were always multiple years my senior. I would conduct interviews with a client as a first year that a senior associate would show up to from co-counsel. As a second-year I’d attend depositions and lead JDG calls that only partners from other V50 firms were on representing similarly sized codefendants. And that was typical (I wasn’t some superstar).
So I don’t think this is a universal truth either way. Probably varies by practice group and firm. I would theorize (like a bit of an ass) that maybe associates at really low ranked firms can get more responsibility because the matters are smaller and less complex. And then you have a large section of associates in the middle doing shitty work, but when you get to the top, you have associates that can be trusted with high-profile stuff pretty quickly.
Mentor
If litigation then, useless vs. slightly less useless vs. somewhat useful vs. n/a
I’m 6th year at a V20 in PE. I don’t know what it is but our juniors this year are terrible. Sometimes you just get a bad batch. Some are trainable but I have given up entirely on others.
Based on your last paragraph, you’re probably not the associate I crossed paths with on my deal. That said, my advice to you is to pick up the phone. It’s your job to communicate what you do or don’t know. It shouldn’t be on a mid level to assume when you should know in fact. If the mid level can tell that you thought about it first, they should be willing to help. Questions are only annoying if it’s obvious that the junior is being lazy and asking for the mid level to hand hold rather than thinking about it first.
Definitely type of work. I’m on the west coast and decided to reject an offer from a V10 in for one of the firms that are stronger in ECVC and tech trans. If your goals are to go in-house early at a tech company or if you want to do ECVC work, it absolutely doesn’t make sense to go to a V10 because you’ll just be doing really large deals there.
A9… sounds like a better gig! I’m probably gonna sell my soul to a bank or PE shop next year🥲
I love that everyone adjusted the question to v10 versus v20.
I think it dramatically depends on the firm and the practice area. And if you think there’s a distinction between V20 and V21 such that one belongs in a different group than the other, I have a bridge to sell you. While US News rankings of law schools are kinda crap, they actually really mean something as to your career prospects, if only because firms buy into them. Vault rankings are not necessarily an indicator of “quality” (whatever that means) across all offices, practice areas, and so on. There are incredibly quality people who end up at top tier boutiques that aren’t “V10” (despite being harder to get a job at) and at the same time I know a lot of slightly above average t14 students who ended up at a V10 in their most robust hiring years.
And a lot of people who turned down v10 or v20 firms for a top ranked firm in their practice area or geographical region.
I’d say at the smaller, lower ranked firms, juniors often find themselves in a situation where they have to step up with no safety net (i.e. sink or swim). The juniors at my v10 firm have been noticeably incompetent this year (i.e. misspelling words, plagiarizing, mixing up parties, etc.) and somehow still have jobs. These people would absolutely be cut loose in a smaller shop where they can’t hide behind their seniors.
Subject Expert
STAHHPP giving the Vault list any meaning in your decision making people. Have any of you filled out that survey? It is literally a list made by asking associates at other firms what they think about the perceived “prestige” of a firm they do not work at and may not have even heard of.
I am an agent of chaos here to tell you I answer the little bubbles randomly! That’s right, some of you are carefully weighing your life decisions based on my random button clicking 😱
This list means nothing. Find actual career goals and criteria to evaluate your choices of firm based off of. I promise you the correct choice for someone who wants to do appellate litigation is not the same as the correct choice for someone who really wants to do bio tech transactions (Cravath isn’t the answer for either of those people btw, and it’s v1).
Exactly! If we are talking New York City public companies/banking related corporate stuff, there is something to Vault. Otherwise it’s literally just which firms big law mid level associates think are prestigious. So it is inherently east coast biased, corporate biased, and beyond a couple prestigious corporate focused nyc based firms, it rewards bigger national brand names/more offices. Some firms seem to have similar levels of excellence across their offices - but not all. And not in all practice areas.
I can only speak to litigation, but I’ve worked in government, a mid-sized regional firm, and a large international firm, and honestly? There are really good and really bad people in both from a wide range of schools. Overall, I actually think working in government first gives you the best experience
Coach
Haven’t worked in government but have worked at a strong regional (AMlaw200) and a v50. The partners at the v50 were much better litigators and overall lawyers than the former.
Mentor
Pretty significant at each step, in the aggregate, subject to numerous exceptions at the individual level.