Dear Christian Brothers and Sisters, do you believe in Theotokos and why ?

My perspective is that Theotokos is something extra-Biblical that cannot be accepted as part of Christianity. I understand that Mary was a good woman chosen by God to deliver the Messiah. However, besides that, there are no verses in the Bible that designate her as an important figure for worship or as an intercessor.

As a Christian, I am only obliged to follow the Scriptures, the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets, and Christ Himself. He is my role model and the only mediator; no one else. Anything additional that contradicts the Bible's verses is considered unbiblical.

Let's hear your argument for or against it first, OP. 😝🫠

5. Praying to a dead person is forbidden in the Bible. But asking someone to pray for us is not forbidden. Please understand the difference.

You mentioned, "Mary is not prayed to and rather she is asked to pray for our petitions to her Son."
Is Mary or any dead person omnipresent and able to hear the prayers of billions of people around the world in different languages?
Why are we giving the godly attributes of God to a dead person?

// This teaching is not taught in the Bible. The Bible clearly says the dead cannot hear. Nobody except Christ can hear our prayers. Bible guides us to pray only to Christ. No one else.

God bless !!.

Very interesting thread. I used to attend a Catholic school and was very close to becoming Catholic. Needless to say, I thank God, the holy spirit let me a different direction. In my adulthood, I’ve realized there are a lot of unbiblical and almost unGodly things within Catholicism. I am very grateful for my Catholic foundations in my Christian education but there are a lot of things that rub me the wrong way as someone who is filled the the spirit of God. I understand wanting to honor Mary but Catholicsm has taken a turn that reminds me much of Hinduism. The bible says the Jesus has become our high priest. He and His spirit stand as a mediator and “intercessor”. Knowing this, for what reason are we calling on Mary to “intercede” for us when we have a high priest and intercessor siting at the right hand of God??? THAT MY QUESTION. And my question, It is completely rhetorical because scripture is clear. Perhaps praying to other people’s spirits has become acceptable in Catholicism because of their belief in purgatory amongst other things. Praying to “saints” aka dead peoples spirits asking for anything is unbiblical and borderline idolatry, mimicking hindusim. The bible says to approach GOD’s throne in full confidence knowing that HE AND HE ALONE can provide the grace for anything we need. I think about these things and I ask myself ARE WE READING DIFFERENT BIBLES?? BECAUSE SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR. But then again I understand that Christianity/ Catholicsm/ Religion has become simply mere rituals that are followed in the footsteps of one parents. Which is very sad. I have much more to say but I’ll just end it here. But my sincere prayer to every follower of Christ is that the Lord will rip off every ungoldy scale off your eyes and cause your eyes to be open. Some traditions and beliefs just done make sense to me especially when they very clearly contradict the word of God.

The first stance in opposition to your argument is to ask you where in scripture does it say to follow scripture alone? You won't find that. In fact, St. Paul says, "Hold fast to the traditions..." in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. John also notes twice in his gospel (chapters 20 and 21) that only a portion of Jesus's ministry was revealed, and based on that we know that gospels were written for the purpose of garnering faith and were not a full historical account.

With all that being said, scripture is used to extrapolate the hypostatic nature of Jesus Christ - fully God - and fully man with the exception of sin. This is attested in the gospel of John, chapter 1, with reference to the Word being with God in the beginning and also being God. St. Paul also attests to this in chapter 2 of Philippians with Jesus taking on the form of a slave but having equality with God. Nowhere in scripture that I am aware of are we specifically told that Jesus is sinless. We must assume that since he is fully God that he would do the will of God. This is a widely accepted premise amongst Christians.

Therefore, BECAUSE we as Christians believe that Jesus was fully God, then Mary was also the mother of God. She is not the mother of God out of her own doing, but because God chose her among all woman to be the one to receive His seed and bear His Son. Remember that Eve was named woman by Adam. Jesus also calls Mary Woman in John chapter at the wedding feast at Cana. Adam and Eve prefigure Jesus and Mary. See Romans 5 - death entering through Adam and eternal life entering through Jesus.

This is also why Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin because God would only work through a pure vessel and not a stained creature. This is also why Gabriel says, "Hail, full of Grace."

Explaining my response with pointers and verses.
1: You said, "The first stance in opposition to your argument is to ask you where in scripture does it say to follow scripture alone"?

Galatians 1:8 NIV
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

//Paul gives an emphasis on this. This is the apostolic core teaching. Pay attention, Dear brothers and sisters. Anything other than what the scripture says or contradicts is unbiblical and cannot be taken into account.
From our Apostolic Teachings, there are no verses in the Bible that point to an intercessor other than Christ.
The Bible is a fully contained text, nothing extra stuff is needed. It's the Sola Scripture scripture.

2. You said "Nowhere in scripture that I am aware of are we specifically told that Jesus is sinless, and You mentioned We must assume that since he is fully God that he would do the will of God". ??
1 Peter 2:22 - He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth.
// Jesus is sinless, Peter says so, he is the same Yahweh in flesh.


3. You said "Therefore, BECAUSE we as Christians believe that Jesus was fully God, then Mary was also the mother of God." and "But because God chose her among all woman to be the one to receive His seed and bear His Son"
// See this is the problematic statement. Mary is not the mother of God. These are wrong interpretations.
The verses below say Jesus is the Start. Mother Mary is just a chosen lady by God. She is a surrogate Mother, not Biological. She cannot be the Mother of God. The "son of Man" is not born at that moment, he is present from the start itself. He just took human form. These interpretations from the early church leaders lead us to Astray.

John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8: 57-59, 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Revelation 22:13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


4. Gabriel says, "Hail, full of Grace." ???
This statement is wrong. The root language direct translation says "[you] favored with grace! the Lord is with you."

Luke 1:38, - Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.
//She is also a normal person, a person with Sin. She is the servant of the Lord, nothing else.

contd...

5. Can anyone point out any Bible verse which guides us to pray to any other person other than Christ, where we have explicit and specific verses to pray only to Jesus as he is our mediator?

Do the scripture/apostles guide us to pray to Moses? - No
Do the scripture/apostles guide us to pray to Abraham? - No
Do the scripture/apostles guide us to pray to Issac? - No
Do the scripture/apostles guide us to pray to Elijah? - No

John 10:30, I and the Father are one”
1 Timothy 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

6. In summary. The core teachings rely on these. Any other teachings outside of the Bible which contradict the verses are unbiblical.

1. 2nd Thess says either by written or oral statement. The verse you quoted works with and not against 2nd Thess. Otherwise, you make the case that the bible contradicts itself.

2. Suffering servant quoted by Peter, acknowledged. However, that doesn't mean we couldn't conclude He was sinless without Peter or Isaiah as the fact that He is fully God is sufficient to believe he was sinless.

3. Martin Luther accepted the teachings of the Church fathers on Mary. It was later in the protestant reformation that this was challenged. Realize that by saying Mary wasn't preserved from original sin by God that you are arguing that God willed to be born through a vessel stained with sin. God would not subject himself, a spotless lamb, to be stained. God planted his seed and also took on the human blood of Mary. Blood is what purified the temple and what ultimately purified us - again see St. Paul. He wouldn't take on stained blood.

4. There is no conflict here. Grace comes from God. God made her full of His grace to preserve her from original sin and also give her a free will to say, "Let it be done to me according to Thy will." Calling Mary a normal person is not scriptural. Isaiah chapter 7 says the Lord will give a sign that a virgin will be with child.

5. Common misunderstanding. Mary is not prayed to and rather she is asked to pray for our petitions to her Son. This is no different than someone in this bowl asking one of us for prayers. As Jesus told the pharasees and scribes that He was not the God of the dead but the God of the living. Those dead in body are fully alive in spirit. There are Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans who individually make the mistake of treating Mary in a way that would place equality with God, but it is almost always from a place of unintentional ignorance. Protestants pounce on these aberrations to make the claim that the Catholic Church is heretical and that comes from a place of ignorance as well.

1. Bible doesn't contradict itself. Paul has mentioned multiple times the teachings related to this.
2nd Thess 2:15, So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Now the question comes what teachings?
1. Christ is the mediator - yes.
2. follow What the scripture says - Yes
4. Pray to Mary or other dead saints - No
5. Sprinkle Baptism - No
6. Mother of God Doctrines - No
... and many others...

If someone says against the teachings of the Apostles, that person is cursed. Be it any leaders of Catholic or any church. The tradition that is being passed is meant to be the teachings of apostles and prophets. No one can Ignore that, by doing so he is cursed.

3&4. The Catholic Doctrine of Immaculate Conception was formed in AD 1854. No one in the church has the right to interpret whatever stuff they think. This is not even Biblical.
Jesus Christ is the same Yahweh in Flesh.

Isaiah 43:10, Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

// See this "I am he" it says in the verse. Jesus is not just born in the womb of Mary. Jesus just took human form. He is man as well as God. Original Sin doesn't come to Christ because he is the 'Son of Man'. These catholic teachings are just heresy. Being a Christian is not revolved around Mary.

Luke 1:47, My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
// If she were sinless, she would not have needed a “Savior.” So Calling Mary a normal person completely adheres to the scriptures.
// Does the scripture/apostles say the opposite ?. See the only way we can cross-check the Dogmas of Catholic teachings is through Bible verses only. The teachings of Mary are unbiblical.

1 John 4:1, Beloved, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Thessalonians 5:21, Test all things; hold fast what is good.

// These are warnings from the scripture that, Apparitions and evil doctrines can lead us astray, and we need to be careful.
// The Scripture is what we are obliged to follow, but nothing else.

contd...

I'll address what I think are the major things you are saying which are wrong or a misunderstanding.

You are quoting the same passage as I am in Thessalonians. Oral statement clearly means that there were apostolic teachings passed down that were not in the bible. That proves Sola scriptura false. And for the record, the Catholic Church gave you the bible, and the apostles were only gone a couple of generations when the Church fathers discerned the canon when the teachings were still fresh. This was done also with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't until Luther (a Catholic monk) that books were removed and he himself was 1400 years removed from the death of the last apostle. Where did his authority come from? That is the clearest definition of a heretic.

Theotokos was established at the council of Ephesus in 430. The corresponding marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception was established 1854 stating the God preserved her from original sin for his on purpose and NOT that she was born without original sin. Theotokos was established because of the response to the Arian heresy and the later Nestorian heresy, gnosticism, etc. to confirm that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Theotokos followed the Hypostatic dogma of Jesus Christ and was not developed on ots own merit.

There's no argument here to suggest that Mary didn't need a savior, nor does she have equality with God. That is a protestant misunderstanding at best or a manipulation of the language at worst.

Catholics ask Mary to pray for us. It's in the words of the Hail Mary prayer. Necromancy is what is forbidden in the bible, and Saul was guilty of it.

The elect who have passed on continually pray Rev 7:15. It's silly to think that they wouldn't ask the Lord to grant graces and protection for those of us still in this life.

Likewise to you, God Bless.

I didn't misunderstand.
The understanding of the Early Christian View of Tradition is totally different from the 4th-century Catholic View.

Let me ask you.

1. What is an Oral or unwritten tradition ?, Does the Catholic Church have any proof or evidence with any references? What secret tradition is being passed from the apostles? If we look closely at the 1st and 2nd century Church leaders, none of the early church leaders supported the secret oral tradition.

Please provide your references. Without evidence the statements which you said would be baseless.

2. You mentioned, "The Catholic Church gave you the bible,". For the understanding, the church didn't give us the Bible. The New Testament was written by the Apostles, inspired by God.
Church was just the custodian, which was responsible for safely taking care of, rearranging the gospels, removing unwanted etc.
But When it comes to interpretation of the scripture it's another hell of a job. Catholic Church doesn't have the right to interpret or the authority to interpret that goes against the teaching of the apostles and the prophets.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

Some of the Books that were removed from the initial books were considered meaningless. And there are many references which can prove that it wasn't God-inspired verses, So it's not heretic.

3. Praying to the dead is fine?
You didn't answer the above question - Is Mary or any dead person omnipresent and able to hear the prayers of billions of people worldwide in different languages?
Can she read prayers from your mind? please answer.

For my part, I believe I made a proper defense of my position and leave it to others to decide with their own intellect which position to accept on Theotokos.

May God bless you and your loved ones.

Jeremiah 29:13, You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

// Its not about the church and the system. Seek the God’s kingdom by following the scripture. That is the guidance from apostles.
If you cant prove something from the System, its corrupted. But God’s words will never fail.

Mathew 5:18, For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I do 🙏