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Not sure if this is standard contract language but this absolutely happens all the time in LA. For those asking how it happens… the call comes from inside the house. I’ll try to keep it brief.
Basically, one of the ways to get accepted into a union is to rack up days day-playing on union shoots. So when on a NU job, some non-union Art Director may have 8 NU days that they want to turn into 8 union days, getting them closer to their goal. So they call the union and let them know the details of the shoot — location, call times, etc. They give the union the call sheet for the job.
Here’s how they flip it: if they get to set and there is just one union member working on that non-union shoot (which there almost always is in LA) they can demand the entire shoot get flipped to union as a one-off, meaning standard (high) rates for crew on a one-off union agreement, plus the union dues, fees, etc.
If the production company refuses, the union will insist the crew walk off the job, noting they have everyone’s names, and I’ve heard they sometimes even take pictures — at that point the crew usually walks off to protect their future relationship with the unions they probably want to join some day. Thus forcing the job to either cancel completely or flip union.
Why this happens in LA so much compared to NYC, I’m not sure. I think it’s probably a lot tougher to have an all NU crew out there than it is here, for whatever reason. I have a NU Production Company in NYC and we’ve never been flipped once, or even harassed. But again, we generally have entirely NU crews, so there isn’t really anything they can get us on.
You do hear stories about harassment in NYC from time to time (like the teamsters having a truck “break down” conveniently right in front of the gate to your lot, blocking your vehicles from leaving or getting to set) but LA is an entirely different beast for whatever reason.
If you’re ever looking to shoot with a killer non-union crew that won’t flip in NYC, hit me up!
Not sure what union scale is for these situations, but there are union fees you need to pay on top of that.
This has been a super informative and helpful thread. Thank you all!
If you operate as a non-union production shop, how would they have jurisdiction and why would the company have to flip? That language in the production contract means they are bidding non-union, but don’t have the right to do so because they are a union shop. This is a flag, IMO.
Coach
SAG/Aftra has FiCore (Financial Core) which allows actors to work both union and non- union jobs. FiCore members of SAG/Aftra do not get to vote in SAG/Aftra elections and more.
this is a very real thing.
i have had it happen 3 times and truly prefer to shoot with union crews in LA due to this.
it is believed that the unions monitor the permit office and then show up at the location.
i have had union members show up at garage entrances at locations downtown, at apartment buildings in mid city and at an estate’s gate in the malibu hills.
You can go slightly over budget by signing a union agreement, or you can go way over budget by having your production shut down and starting over.
have you discussed the implications of union vs non-union internally with the account team and then with clients?
this has been a thing, especially in LA for sometime and can happen anywhere in the US. you should be aware if you are bidding a job with a union or non-union production company. you should discuss your approach and if you are shooting with a union or non-union company with your client in your pre-bid meeting. a client MAY want to save money and shoot with a non-union company for the savings. you and they need to keep in mind that IF they are a company that may be unionized with their workers they may want a union production company to protect the optics of the job.
How would the union have jurisdiction to just flip the production? And if they do, are the implications that just the crew get union rates or will they also flip the actors?
Coach
Account Director 2: appreciate your SO’s experience but it has not been mine - I have had 3 Non-union jobs in LA County shutdown and flipped. There a number statements you make which are counter to my experience.
1. I have had projects halted by IATSE or Teamsters and did not have a union DP, Grip or Gaffer but found out that there was someone else on the crew who was union and regulars worked union and non-union jobs.
2. The current writer’s strike has other implications. If you are shooting at a stage or lot there and WGA is picking that stage/lot other union members will likely NOT cross the picket line so union jobs have implications.
3. Non Union wages ARE typically lower than Union wages as there are union minimums. If non-union and union jobs had the same rates there would only be saving of pension and welfare costs but with non-union jobs you usually save both Pension and Welfare and have a lower rate.
3. Union Pension and Welfare is typically about 30% on top of wages. Actual costs vary based on time of year and are higher at the beginning of the year.
FWIW I have been a commercial producer/EP/HOP for more than 20 years and also have worked in network and cable television and film.
"If that guy let a project flip without a union dp/grip/gaffer it tells me all i need to know about their "producing" abilities 😂
Also when a job flips the rates don't go up just the p/w. Hit up Calvin at 399 if they have teamster questions, Crystal at 44 or Karen at 871 if they would like to confirm.
WGA is on strike not IATSE, union commercial people are crossing all day, it's been slow for most and they need the rates. Or just hire non union people production, should be checking crew status anyways if you have a half way decent prod team."
This was really informative thanks everyone
What’s the situation in Vancouver
Coach
unions are local to a single country.
IATSE, teamsters, etc are US entities.
hey OP i asked my significant other who has 20 years of commercial producing experience and he says you're getting some bad advice. Here is his take:
- the "union" or IATSE will only flip a project if the DP, gaffer, and key grip are union. Everyone else is replaceable.
- if you are worried about it flipping make sure the production company doesn't hire a union DP
- right now with the writers strike they are flipping very few project over a fear it will allow too many people joining the unions and not enough work to go around
- lots of comments suggesting to do a bid for union and nonunion, you should be aware that this bids if done right will look completely different. there are union position that nonunion shoots don't hire but are mandatory on union shoots. the union bid will probably be twice as much as the more experienced union crews tend to use better and more expensive tools/lights/etc and won't compromise for a weak production team.
- if you want to have this shoot be the most cost effective you should move forward with the nonunion shoot and hold 10% of the payroll wages (not the entire budget) in the event the project flips. this will do two things for you, 1) protect you cost wise if the project flips 2) hold the production company responsible to an amount and prevent them from pocketing some of the money paid by the agency for the flip. please note that if a project flips wages WILL NEVER increase, the production company will just have to pay extra pension and wage fees which is around 8-9% of wages.
- union crews will always be better, faster, more expensive, and deliver a better finished product but nonunion projects have their place as well. you will need to decide what's best for the project.