Chief
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Hi all,
I’m looking to relocate to Seattle. Does anyone know if any of the Big 4 are still recruiting campus hires to start in Summer/Fall 2023? I’m open to either Audit or Tax, but I have internship experience in Tax.
I applied and received an offer at a Big 4 in San Francisco (campus hire), but I’ve decided Seattle is the better fit for me as it will be closer to my hometown and family in Vancouver.
Thanks!
KPMG EY PwC Deloitte
I'm looking for a job... Please help...
Hi all,
Do firms match offers from other Big 4s for campus hires? I’ve received a campus offer from both KPMG and EY. I’m more interested in the EY offer, but they are paying 3k less than KPMG.
Would it be a bad move to let them know about the other offer and try negotiating? I feel it wont make a difference in the long run, but at the same time I don’t want to leave any money on the table if possible.
Thanks!
KPMG EY PwC Deloitte
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Learning and development. Especially early career folks simply do not learn nearly as quickly when they are not in person. Overhearing other conversations and being able to quickly ask colleagues questions speeds up development a ton. It’s less critical for experienced professionals, but they need to be doing some of that teaching, and that happens more effectively in person. It’s not even close.
Why? Much of my learning at Deloitte has happened one on one or in a small group. Certain jobs don’t have much development to be had (e.g. a role like a payroll clerk isn’t going to significantly develop over time). But for those with professional careers who want to development the skills needed to move up, learning in person makes a difference, especially early in their career.
I honestly wish I could tell you. I think that leadership thinks people are more productive in the office. However, that isn't true. I am way more productive at home than in the office.
Chief
Yep spot on, I think the exact same
Control. That's the only answer that makes sense to me. They don't think they can trust employees to act like adults unless they're under constant supervision. Pretty ridiculous since the pandemic proved that we can be just as productive at home as we are in office.
The data is a wash and all the studies have methodology flaws (in both directions.)
I think the most sound study on it showed that employees produced the same amount of work in ~9 hours while remote that they would produce in ~8 while in office. In other words they’re working more hours but each hour produces less work product. Total output is about the same as on average; only thing that changes is the hours to get that output.
That’s a different point than I was making here though, which was that output remains flat because some people work significantly less while unsupervised while other people work significantly more. I don’t think there’s any studies looking at that fact pattern, but from my experience as a supervisor pre-Covid, during covid, and post-Covid, it’s what happens. In office helps control for unfair shares of the workload significantly.
1. Control
2. Justify the lease on the building
3. Supposedly better communication and collaboration.
Chief
I’ve always thought it was a control thing too but the building lease one is actually very valid and one that I hadn’t even contemplated
I believe it's control. We are currently in the office 3 days per week (Monday/Tuesday/Thursday) and at home Wednesday/Friday. But we are going to 4 days per week in office come September. Obviously everyone is frustrated because we want the work/life flexibility of working from home more often. Our CEO has said that it has nothing to do with productivity and that it's more about creating community and team building/socialization. I believed her until she recently put out a new policy saying that if we need to work from home on an in office day for whatever reason, that we have to come in on a Wednesday or Friday to make up for it. So basically if we have an appointment on a Thursday and ask for an exception to work from home, we have to come into the office on Friday and be there alone while everyone else is at home. So I say it is a complete control thing that companies want us to work from the office more.
I’m not interested in going to lunch with anyone, being invited to go to lunch with anyone, cubicle decorating, or anything besides working and going home.
For some it is definitely a control thing. When you’re learning or being trained though, that should generally be in person.
But once an employee is experienced, there’s no reason to not have a hybrid option.
I used to be extremely efficient at home pre-covid. Now though, as long as the commute is reasonable, I’d kind of rather be in the office. When I come home, I don’t want to even think about work.
However, I hate being constantly interrupted in the office. Anytime I need to do something analytical, I’d rather do it at home.
Agreed. Let good employees and proven performers work from home, or at least give them a hybrid option.
oh boy. Some use return to office as a way to get employees to quit so they don't have to go through a round of layoffs. For others it really just comes down to an old school mindset and control. They view employees as children who won't work unless they are under supervision.
Chief
That’s a really good point and one I hadn’t even thought of before. I’ll have to look out for companies that start doing that
It’s honestly just about controlling employees. They’re paying you to do a job and they don’t want anything to get in the way of you doing what you’re being paid to do. Being in office is a way they can make 100% sure of that.
Chief
100% agree with this
D1 said it best, as a junior employee, you don’t know what you don’t know. Could you do your current job at home? Probably. But you won’t grow, overhear things you didn’t know exist, make relationships with people you didn’t know were there, get involved in areas you never thought about.
It also deeply affects your ability to manage and interact. If all you want is a paycheck and not a career and not to develop, then yes, RTO can seem
Unnecessary. But if you actually want a career, even if it’s not in what you do now, you can’t replace being in office.
We already have a hybrid. Before the pandemic. The ability to work remote on most Fridays, or when you need to. This industry was far more flexible than banking or trading other financial jobs, still is.
All the posts talking about control or not trusting have a small point. It’s the same reason why your web activity is tracked, or your time. Or a badge to get in the building. Of course there isn’t absolute trust. And I’ve seen posts that both get offended by it but also acknowledge that some people take advantage.
Look, I’m not saying firms have your best interest in mind. They don’t. If GT benefited from you (general you) being fired then you are fired, that’s all there is to it. But in person doesn’t just benefit the firm, I’ve listed some of the reasons it’s beneficial to individuals.
I like working from home as much as anyone else. But let’s be honest about the limitations.
Bad managers think that if they can't SEE you working, you're probably not. Bad managers who like a captive audience for their jokes, awkward socializations, and bullying will talk about "company culture" and "team building".
And some people don't have the discipline to work from home and still get their work done, and they tend to screw it up for everyone else and make the people above feel justified in their horrible management practices.
Being in the office isn’t bad. However, it can be a complete waste of time.
Chief
You can do the exact same job from home most of the time
Pro
Upper management needs to justify keeping the lease on the building, and other expenses that go with it.
And it's about control. Many managers have that old school mindset, and can be micromanagers and don't know if you are actually doing your job if they can't physically see you.
And they say it's for better communication, and better learning and development opportunities. My office has been back in the office for a bit over a year, and I have yet to see any learning and development opportunities that are not done online.
“Productivity is just as good from working from home”
Hours worked go up and output stays flat. That is evidence of productivity decreasing. Anecdotally this is true, but we also have a few studies showing those results. The same amount of work is getting done at home, but people are working longer hours, which in an industry built around timekeeping is not a good thing.
Then there’s all the soft skills benefits of being in person.
I’m all for a hybrid environment; however, I continually see first hand that people with five years or less are developing at much slower rates when working at home vs in person with their peers.
In public accounting it has been very noticeable as people working in a remote environment are 1 to 2 years behind where their peers were prior to COVID depending whether they are at the senior level or new manager level. I am specifically speaking to the audit function and their skills sets to effectively operate as experienced seniors or new managers. I keep hearing people say that they are more productive at home, which may be the case for more experienced individuals, but that’s simply not true for associates and seniors. Believe me, it’s in all of our best interests for seniors and managers to be able to operate effectively and effectively in their roles, but the development curve is much longer in a remote environment.
It is much more than holding people accountable. Working with peers for a greater goal is necessary for success and doing that face to face requires dedication and tenacity. I do not promote any work from home.
WORKING, from home. It’s a contradiction. Home is for family. Work stays at work.
Waking up and arriving to a destination each day requires a certain level of discipline, dedication, and commitment.
I also find in person conversation to be more fulfilling and productive.
Communication is not at its best, and employees in certain sectors must work together to collaborate in person to achieve their goal, especially if day to day activities move fast.
In addition, as a mother, I want my home to be separate from work.
I was back in the office…. We still pinged each other through teams even though we were across the room 🤷🏼♂️ it is what it is
As long as you’re productive and efficient, it doesn’t matter where you’re sitting.
Many who made the decision getting the employees to work in office are employees too. I believe they forgo this flexibility because being Senior Management need sidekick around when they are in office to give the impression that they are managing the team.