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My friend moved from big law to in house and I’ve never seen her happier. She took a pay cut but she wishes she jumped off the big law ship sooner. She got her life back, she looks healthier, and her mental health is revitalized. For her, the pay cut was worth every lost penny.
Nice to know!
Can't speak for all midsizes, but it's possible at my firm to stay at non-equity for years (5-6+) or move to counsel without stigma. Not as much "up or out" pressure at my firm, as long as you bill decent hours and do good work.
OP: it sounds like you already appreciate the options. The challenge for senior associates looking to move to smaller firms is that most smaller firms need their partners to bring in business. There are definitely some that have a lot of work and need lawyers to service it, but that is episodic and my guess is that this is not a great time for real estate lawyers. In house jobs often have significantly lower pay, but over the long term they can be lucrative. I’m at a midsized firm and active in lateral hiring and can tell you that there are too many big law junior partners and senior associates who think that their credentials are enough. Credentials are the minimum qualification and the rest is our economic need.
Partner 1 - how about just not really having a sponsor in the group? I feel I do good work but I just never felt that there’s someone who will ever take me under their wings. I’m a lateral and lots of partners prefer to work with associates who have been working with them for a long time so I usually get deals when their favorites are too busy or some pretty complicated deals (which i really like and do well). If it’s a repeat transaction with the same client, partners usually just use a mid level they are familiar with.
I mean if someone can stay at a firm for more than 5 years, I don’t think competence is an issue? I’ve never seen any dumb people at my firm, just a lot of very horrible personality and entitlement issues
What's your practice area? I'm at a Chicago IP boutique and lifestyle is pretty good. But I'm not going to lie, if you want to make equity at most midsizes, you still need to crush hours and have substantial collections.
Similar boat in L&E. Non-equity partnership possible, but just want off the track for a number of reasons. Been applying in-house and mentally preparing for the massive paycut in exchange for the change of pace/scenery. I've considered looking into a counsel or staff role at current firm, but worry there may be some stigma with that (real or imagined) Interested in options others have explored.
Coach
I would be wary of going to a midsize. There will definitely be a paycut, but often times hours are not much better/not worth the paycut. You may find partners at the midsize make what senior associates make in big-law and associates/counsel make way less. You may find yourself doing the same stuff but now you no longer have tools like a full staff of junior associates, paralegals, 24/7 word processing, 24/7 mail room etc. Or the work you’ll be doing may not be as sophisticated, you may find you’re doing much more title work or local counsel consulting while the “sexy” deal running work goes to the biglaw firms like where you used to work. Not that any of that has to be a deal breaker for you, but go into it with eyes open. Speaking as someone who’s regretting having left biglaw.
I disagree that real estate does not lend itself to very sophisticated practice, but perhaps that was because of where I worked. Maybe not this year, but I do think RE sets you up for many solid (decent pay) in house jobs working for RE investors/developers who may be your current clients - Tishman I believe even pays biglaw scale but definitely not a 9-5 job. Also v competitive to get, but wanted to mention so you know that type of gigs are out there. You don’t have to go down to $100k with solid biglaw experience but you may need to go down to $200-$250k (which may be what you make at a midsize anyway).
I don’t think next year or so is great for RE hiring so personally I’d stick it out for now if you can in biglaw but keep looking, and look more seriously at exit options in ‘22.
Coach
That’s right. I wouldn’t want to go to a leasing heavy shop (boring and repetitive to me and tends to be lower pay) personally but I think developer work is really cool and offers good in-house opps if you can find a way to get that in your next firm role.
Partner 2 - what kind of law firm would offer 220k for base? AM 200??
Mentor
Honestly I haven’t thought in terms of Amlaw or V-whatever in so many years, that’s irrelevant. I am in a small boutique with REIT and major private company clients and a national practice. My firm size makes us an Amlaw 10,000 (or100,000) but our practice rivals any of your V places. No one bills more than 1800 hours. If I were you, I would find those firms.
If you need the prestige of a V or Amlaw, then get a counsel position. No judgment- you need to do what makes you happy.
I assume smaller firms give more cut than 1/3 to associates because of a lower overhead. Is this true in general?
What’s your practice area?
Real estate. Not wanting to make partner anywhere. Is it possible to go midsize and be an associate or counsel forever?
Honestly I think counsel at a good firm is a great gig. There are quite a few in my firm in RE, more than there are partners actually. One actually was a partner at a midsize firm for a couple of years and decided to leave and join our group as counsel.
Mentor
OP - you asked salary. I assume you are less than 10 years out of school. I think you would get high 100s low 200s. If your rate is $350 times 1800 divided by 3= $210k.
There are practices/firms out there that are great and some that are bad - it will take work to find the good ones. Start networking now so that when times are better in a year, you can make your move.
Coach
Is this Chicago specific? Honestly, I’m a little taken aback by those numbers. Seems low.
I don’t think I can get a counsel position where I am. It’s super too heavy and even people who’ve been out of law school for 15 years are billing over 2000.
No need for the prestige anymore. I already worked there so that’s always in my resume. How do I find these boutiques? I saw lots of small firms are found by law firm refugees. are those firms good to check out?
Actually I rarely run against big firms. Usually lower ranked firms but very strong in their region. I think it’s because I’m in real estate and not that many highly ranked firms have strong real estate practice (it doesn’t make much money I suppose)
Mentor
Counsel 1 is right. Talk to small firm opposing counsel. If they aren’t in Chicago ask them who are counterparts in Chicago.
Partner 2 - I’d like to be a partner at a decent size firm. I worked at a small real estate firm in Manhattan before. FANTASTIC lawyers (honestly much better lawyers than the v10 firm I’m at) but the infrastructure was frustrating. No IT no overnight staff. And also I feel promotion is fraternity like (you have to be in the in-group).
I suppose that’s the case for everywhere if you want yo make partner (big or small). I’d love to give partnership a shot but I just don’t want to be in a small firm and cannot make partner and be forced to go .. I’m totally fine with a counsel gig at a stable firm. I am very confident I do great work but in terms of client development, I think it’s a bit of luck and network, which I’m not confident about.
I actually don’t mind billing 2000. I’m currently at 2300-2400 and cut many hours because my rate is ridiculously high and we have a lot of fixed fee deals