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Bain & Company Hey there,
Anyone have any idea about Associate consultant pay at Bain in Riyadh?
In the last reound and I have an offer from OW. (apart from money, which one is better? in terms of culture, WLB, and less public segtor work)
wondering if it's worth it to do the next round or not.
+ any idea about signing bonus & relocation benifit? Bain & Company Oliver Wyman
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Any thoughts on iCapital?
Any one got the retention offer from TCS ?
Hows the onsite situation in LTI?
Pro
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Monday Wordle 331 5/6
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Decided to make a meme 😅😹
Looking to get a new wallet. Any brand recs?
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Rising Star
Yes, it’s the same reason Indian people like being around Indian people, Asians around Asians, and blacks around black people.
We live in a 70% white country, maybe less since people started throwing Latino/Hispanic as white. But it’s normal.
Rising Star
Uh, literally people do this regardless of that.
Humans by their nature are tribal. Human societies have evolved this way via tribe or klan. This isn’t much different than how people give preference to members of their family.
People value and connect via shared experiences and that builds bonds and friendship. A friend will help another friend do everything from move to getting a job.
This can lead to favortism and nepotism for sure but that doesn’t mean it is inherently racist. I see this in the workplace across race and culture be it from Indian states like Gujarat or Punjab to Chinese regions, etc. I also see it beyond race if people were Marines or went to one of the service academies and this comes from a shared fraternity they have in common.
This can certainly be racist but it isn’t typically or inherently racist.
This is exactly why I think it’s more complex then simply labeling something as racist. Obviously we should scrutinize our actions because there is clearly systemic racism, but I don’t think we should be so quick to label an action as racist either.
This is unconscious bias
Training is part of a solution. Any hiring manager needs to understand unconscious bias. It applies to race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Understanding you may have a “preference” for people similar to you and that choosing someone because you relate doesn’t build strong teams or produce the best work product. Second step is using data to achieve goals. Good companies should not look just at hiring targets, but team composition of established teams, a hiring managers propensity to hire candidates with various characteristics, etc. I think the answer is about companies actually acknowledging a problem and deciding they are going to change with purpose.
It’s systemic racism. It’s built into the system.
@accenture2 as a white man, the America government and economy was made for the betterment of white men. The SYSTEM was set up in that way. It takes actions to uplift and engage other races and genders to counteract the SYSTEM that has been in place for centuries.
Chief
Not finding a question to answer here, but I’ve been in consulting for about 8 years and have never been on a majority white male team. I’m a white male btw.
Chief
Who’s debating SC2? Looks like people just providing their personal experience to me.
It may be unintentional, but it’s still racist, just like it would be if other races did the same thing (they do, everyone is more likely to pick people similar to them). I think everyone needs to work on working with people who may be very different than them.
It is one racist cog in a much larger racist machine. Important to acknowledge that good people can be unintentionally racist.
C1 I would counter that if people choose to work with people that are more like them, and white people find white people to be more like them, while white people make up the majority of the firm...then your career is being limited due to racism, as say a Black person.
I think the narrow focus on “I don’t look down on people of other races” ignores the issue of “I generally favor people of my own race/background.”
Rising Star
They weed others out by saying they’re not a “fit”, for the team / companies “culture”.
Rising Star
OP - That would be fine if cultural fit ≠ white, but unfortunately in most cases it does.
Teams chosen based on racism will underperform compared to teams chosen based on competency. Any manager choosing their team based on how much they have in common is a poor manager.
When I’m staffing a project, I look for skills and experience first, then reputation. You’d be amazed how difficult it is to find the right skill set (who also happens to be available when you need them) and who has a great reputation for work ethic and being a great teammate. And if that person you’ve selected isn’t interested in the role (and this happens more than you may think), poof they’re gone and your back to square one.
Rising Star
Congrats you solved everything
Pro
Pleasurable- maybe. Have you considered that quality of work could be compromised because you might have not picked the best resource for the job / team etc. If that person happens to be the best fit, it’s fair. Otherwise, you should think about how you can approach this with a different mindset than just compatibility.
Pro
And I am definitely not suggesting to force fit someone just to make the team diverse especially if it’s a smaller team. Evaluate your needs and make the best choice. Just don’t go in with compatibility as your only goal.
Pro
No not racist, if you are happy you work better
My issue with the original statement is your definition of racism. The hatred of people of other races or thinking your race is superior is a very narrow definition of racism. That is closer to a definition of supremacy. Racism is closer defined as prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people based on their race or ethnic group, typically one that is marginalized. The original definition is used by white people to say I am not racist, I don’t hate black people but they do choose whites first - which is racist because it is prejudicial.
Answering your question - yes it is racist
Based on personal experience over 30+ years I tended to hire people I knew because it was a safe/known choice. Early on I didn’t hire many black (or other URM people) because I didn’t know many initially. That changed over time as my circle of experience broadened and I became more aware of the importance of diversity. My behavior, however unintentional, was probably racist and prejudicial. It’s also a reality of systemic racism. I didn’t know many Black people in the 80’s and 90’s because there weren’t many in my company or social network. That’s changing finally albeit slowly.
It is racism, or at least a strong unconscious bias.
Two thoughts to the OP:
1) why assume appearance as proxy for common ground, why can one not look beyond that and look for more relevant attributes (eg hard working, humorous, etc)
2) what about the value of diversity? A group of people that all think alike is prone to have big and costly blind spots
It’s more about how we tend to operate on heuristics than it is about open bias or outright racism. I know me and my experiences. I know I work well and feel like I can trust people like me with the client and in a tight team environment. Without having to do a lot of research (while simultaneously getting this project off the ground), I can take shortcuts (heuristics) to staff my project and be confident I picked good people. Staffing a project is one of the more challenging aspects of being a Manager+ that no one talks about and there’s no training I’m aware of that teaches how to do it. You get an availability roster from a TFS, tap into your own network, and start booking people to the role before they can say “No”. Before you know it, you’ve cloned yourself 10x.
I’ve seen this go both ways. I was on a project with 10 white, short-haired males that looked a lot like the SM and have also seen a PMO team where the SM was African American and the majority of his 15 person team was as well.
Can we do better? Absolutely and we must...our staffing method allows unconscious bias, heuristics, prejudice to creep in without knowing it. Not all about skin color either, I may see someone went to my same grad school or one I admire and boom, you’re getting a ping for my role.
I am unclear how this is strictly racism when OP referenced white men picking white men. Many of the replies have focused on the skin color aspect of the post but left out gender. As other posters pointed out, this is unconditional bias and is likely a combination of both racial bias and gender bias. Check out https://diversity.ucsf.edu/resources/unconscious-bias
Your example is literally isolating a group of people from a job opportunity based on the color of their skin and making a load of assumptions of what they can and can’t bring to the table just because of that. It’s racism.
@KPMG2, when it comes to skin color and that being the only factor in your judgment of people, that’s racism.
There’s no mental gymnastics here.
You think you can’t get along with someone based on race.
When in reality, you’re simply saying:
You won’t get along with someone based on race.
(Or gender, or sexual orientation, etc.)
Check your definition of racism 🤦♀️
Again, coming at this from a genuine perspective: How is it unconscious bias though? Are cultures not different? Do we not have preference to our own cultures?
I guess you’re born into a culture and learn to like it is the counter argument?
C1- your overly simplified argument right now is “I am aware of my racial bias and think it is fine because everyone is racially bias.”
The reality is, certain people have a lot of privilege. By consciously only sharing that privilege with people based on race, you are demonstrating racism. I don’t know how to explain to you that that is not ok.
How do you define racism?