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You’re absolutely right—it’s not real rest if work is still front and center. I’ve found it helps to set very firm OOO expectations ahead of time, even if it feels uncomfortable. True time off only happens when we protect it like we would any other client commitment.
I try everything yet work about half of each day I’m on vacation. We’re too small a staff for anyone else to cover. Not happy, but get good benefits and decent money. Not great but decent
I honestly sense a movement happening. You’re not the only one. I think a lot of firm lawyers are realizing that while yes the money is nice, it just isn’t worth giving up all your free time. People want time to live their lives away from work.
I think the industry needs an overhaul to be quite honest. Hire more people to distribute the work. I know a lot of people are going to think I’m soft to say this but there’s absolutely no reason for any human to work more than 30 hours a week given how much more productive technology has made everyone. If there’s more work to do firms should be hiring more lawyers to distribute the work better instead of pounding associates to work 60+ hour weeks on a regular basis with no real breaks.
It’s honestly insane and just by speaking up you’re helping in my opinion. The more people realize they aren’t the only one who feel this way and want something different the more that can be spurred into serious conversations at higher levels.
In short - you’re 100% right to want to have a real vacation every once in awhile and you’re not alone.
I feel like the folks signing the checks are always going to view this as: if you want to split the work in half with an other person, then your salary should also be slashed in half and we’ll give the other half to whoever we hire to split the load with you. Maybe I’m just cynical, but it makes me think there probably is no revolution coming. Even if we become more and more efficient — I mean, we’re certainly far more efficient now than lawyers were in the pre-internet era, and billable requirements have only gone up (along with firm profits). I don’t think greed will cede, I guess
I took my first vacation in over a year and the first one with my 6 month old baby. I knew I was going to work on my trip, but I ended up working twice as much while away (and billing almost a full day my last day there) because a large assignment was sprung on me right before I left. And then didn’t get so much as a thank you or any acknowledgement. In fact, the first comment I received my first day back was a criticism. Call me weak, but I’ve honestly cried about it more than once. I don’t get that time back with my daughter. I’m starting to wonder why I’m subjecting myself to this environment, but I don’t know if it’s better anywhere else.
C1 You’re in house and also a fractional GC? Can you say more? I’m interested.
What is wrong with you people? The partners have payments due on their vacation houses, Maseratis and alimony. Get to billing!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I know a guy who was called to do work on his wedding day. He said no and hung up the phone.
He wasn’t even a partner LOL
If you’re at big law, that’s just expected. It’s the price you pay for golden handcuffs. At those firms, clients don’t pay you for your knowledge, they pay you to be available on a Saturday night and cancel your wedding to be there for them. But if it’s a botique firm, you’re not getting paid enough for work bs during your vacation time. Depending on your seniority, I’d say something to the higher ups if it’s consistent issue.
@c3 what big law have you been at that doesn’t expect you to always be at the mercy of the clients and cancel your plans to close the deal or draft the motion? I’ve been at 2 big laws and it’s was the unwritten expectation.
When I take vacation, I make sure that I’ve arranged coverage AND that I go somewhere without signal, like the top of a mountain range, so that I legitimately can’t check email even if I wanted to. When I do have access, you just have to set stronger boundaries if it’s important to you.
My backpacking trip through the Grand Canyon was the most restful vacation I’ve had since starting big law. Sure I was hiking 12+ miles a day with a backpack 40% of my body weight, but I had no cell service whatsoever. Firm would have needed to send a helicopter to get me haha
Put up an out of office and silence your phone.
Got a solid 20 hours in on my honeymoon in Italy (which we had already scheduled for a shorter period due to work). This included an hour long call where someone was praised for taking time out of the day/ taking the call from their car because they had an annual physical scheduled…
For associates, this is unacceptable. You should not be expected to bill on vacation.
For partners, the calculus is a bit more difficult. I feel the need to check emails once a day to see that the house isn’t on fire and if there are emergent client needs. But there rarely are.
I tell people - clients, colleagues, and OC - that I am peacing out. Generally they are not monsters. If something dire happens, I will call and be told to go enjoy myself.
If a client demands my time for a false emergency (and it is my client), I will softly turn down their next opportunity and give them a referral for someone else. If a more senior person tries me, I will pull the same trick. I could have way more money if I put up with that BS, but I’m happy working with the clients who treat my team and I with respect.
I think that this is a fair distinction. As a partner, you're one of the businesses owners and have more of an obligation than your employees. That being said, I think the limit really needs to be checking in for actual emergencies.
Can you not just say no?? I tell the partners I work for 2 months in advance and remind them periodically. I put an OOO up and sometimes don't take any electronics with me on vacation. I'm take 2 one week vacations a year. If I can't log off there, then it's not the firm for me.
loooollllll no, can’t just say no without repercussions.
I got chastised for the timing of my parental leave even though I’d given boss a heads up two months ahead of time. Prior firm was told by my boss that I could no longer accept work from other offices because he called about something non-urgent and I didn’t answer (I was in a client meeting with another partner from a different office). At my first firm there was a partner who hadn’t taken a vacation in over 20 years. I’ve gotten calls before 7 a.m. (including on weekends) and after 9 p.m. at 2 of the 4 firms I’ve worked at. When I did take vacation, it’s been expected that I work. I’m sure most people on this thread have similar or worse anecdotal examples of why you can’t “just say no.”
Not taking electronics is an OG move I may try once I really stop caring.
At one of my previous firms, a partner explained that his family beach vacation involved working remotely for 3-4 hours every morning. It didn’t seem to bother him; in fact, he embraced it. That conversation stuck with me years later when I decided to leave firm life for in-house, where I have been ever since.
You are going to have to figure out handling the pressure/expectation no matter where you are. I interviewed for a real estate scty position and stated I would be taking 3 weeks off for vacation. I did take it, and when I returned my boss was upset, saying something to me that he wish he could take "3 weeks off." He was a co-managing real estate transactional partner at the firm & he had a second business, a national property management co in the same building. [He did have a huge client that helped with billables.] I felt bad but went back to his office and reminded him: "Why did you work so hard at law school if you can't take time off, even now? You have two staff to delegate work to, etc. You give me permission to sign your signature on a lot of stuff... If you want to go to NY [his dream at the time] for a month then you should do it. If not know, when? You need to just do it, and delegate." A day or 2 later, he said "You are right." Next thing I know, I was involved in sending items to the Carlisle (sp?) in NY where he stayed a month with his wife. And he did other trips as well. Everything worked out; ever deal closed, etc.
Good on you for the way you handled this. You helped him to realize his time is his and he needs to decide how he wants to use it. You also did not apologize and allow him to guilt trip you through his passive aggressive comment which is a manipulation tactic intended to subliminally induce shame and plant the seeds of feeling disloyal. Applause!! Applause!!!
Definitely doesn’t have to be that way. Associates at our firm have protected vacations. Once you get more senior it is harder though.
I pretend that it means that I’m important. I’m also less insulated from this as solo in-house with solo side gigs as I’m basically the only resource and business doesn’t stop for a week. I just hope it will give my wife and kids a good life, and I plan to buy lots of life insurance.
I don’t even look at email while I’m out or take calls (but I also never take more than 3 days off in a row). But my firm has a system in place for the work to be covered. BUT I make wayyyy less than the average big law associate.
Nobody is forcing you to live this kind of life. Although I agree with your sentiment, this just comes off as whiney. Just quit your job.
When we went to Europe (I wasn’t a partner then and saved like crazy), I checked emails twice on that trip and never responded. Last year in HI, participated in a conference call but the family didn’t care and it was at 6:00am local time and didn’t interfere with the trip. I was lead counsel on a major multi-million dollar claim and it couldn’t wait for me to return.