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I anticipate receiving a tentative offer from the DOD. I'm trying to figure out what I should negotiate. All of the listed items below at once? Or would it be wiser to be strategic about what elements to try to get first? Any inputs are greatly appreciated.
1. Salary
2. Permanent Change of Station (PCS) Expenses
3. Student Loan Repayment Program (SLRP)
4. Signing Bonus
5. Annual Leave: Rate of Accrual
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Saw this on Reddit.. 😂
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Comp too low if that’s billing 40-45 a week. If WORKING 40-45 and it’s a true 9-5 job, then it’s much more attractive
Yes, we’re talking about total work and a 9-5
75 - 80 percent Cravath and target 25 percent bonus with 40-45 hours of WORK (and not billing will make this attractive). Tech startups and VCs can be pretty stingy so every hour billed takes a lot more out of you than your standard PE M&A.
Think of it this way, you can compete if you make them whole on base bc they would never get the bonus with these hours at Biglaw anyway. Your edge would be the Guarantee that it’s neither expected nor needed so they can relax after hours.
I would strongly consider this under the terms CA 1 proposes. If you’re interested in a 9th year m&a associate from a V5 firm, send me a DM.
Are you really able to effectively respect nights + weekends? Agree with others that comp is low; but if you can promise that I don’t have to look at work post 6:30 pm everyday (with the very very rare exception), it could be worth it. Because otherwise 40-45 hours a week is as bad as (or maybe worse than) any other big law firm. What practice group is this?
A11- Unlike BigLaw partners, we’re not afraid of clients with those delusions taking their business elsewhere.
I took a job with a similar promise (although not remote) and high-tailed it back to big law after 4 months. Billing 40-45 hours a week is actually pretty exhausting regardless and for me was not at all worth the pay cut. If the 40-45 hours/week is inclusive of admin meetings, CLEs, etc. then that’s different.
I will say that full remote is a big plus and if it’s truly free weekends + several weeks off (completely unplugged) that would be a big pull. If you cannot completely stick to that promise, I suspect you would have a hard time retaining a good ex-BL associate. I became resentful when I sensed the partners pushing back when I tried to plan a two-week vacation or billed 35 hrs in a week after spending 5 hours doing other random work things. I am now back in big law and am 10x happier than I was at that firm.
Got it. In that case it is definitely appealing! I plan to phase out of big law in 2-3 years and would consider something like that.
I already bill around 35-40 hrs a week at my market paying BL firm and we offer full remote. Firm advocates for 20 BDs of vacation a year unplugged.
Partners routinely turn down work/clients who are unrealistic and push back. Seen it in action and it works. Business is booming, PPP increases each year, we’re expanding like mad and hiring to meet the demand
Comp is my concern as well. Esp with inflation and student loan repayment looming
There is a material difference between billing 45 hours and working 45 hours especially with startups. I’m not giving up 40% of my salary to bill 5 less hours a week on average.
Sorry I missed like half the previous comments haha. I think you get the point now that most ex-big law folks need that distinction made clear 😅
Is the comp Cravath including their bonus? Or just salary?
Agree with the below, in that case - comp is too low for me to justify a switch. I've still got a few years of debt service and saving that need to be at a higher level, and I've come to terms that biglaw pay is basically the only way to do get that done in a reasonable time frame (senior associate, for reference).
You might want to leave the hours floor a bit lower and then give them a rev share for the remainder. For example 20hrs a week and then anything they do over that give them a rev share. That’ll keep them incentivized and not feeling like they have zero upward mobility. Even if you could, it’s hard to sell that you’d actually guarantee no working any weekends etc because deals happen over weekends and unless they are legit just paper pushing I don’t see how that’d work.
The big law firm I was at offered me part time when I said I was leaving so most associates would consider that over jumping ship to a smaller shop. I think it’s the 40-45 hard hours part that’d scare a lot of folks away.
Ahh. Very interesting. I appreciate that you’re at least thinking outside the box to make things work. I wish I had a concrete answer for you. The market is crazy right now and the talent pool doesn’t really know what they want. So you’re in the unenviable position of needing talent and the talent being thrown money wherever they go and thinking that’s how it’s going to be forever.
If you really want to bridge the gap in a way that is mutually beneficial for each party, I would offer to split the collections on any hours over a certain target. You can stager it as the hours get higher 30/70 for hours 1600-1700, 40/60 for hours 1700-1800, 50/50 for hours 1800 and above. That way there is no expectation, but any grinding above and beyond is incentivized.
This is absolutely on our list 💡
Interested
comp is way too low for this to be attractive to 5-8 years at biglaw with requisite experience the bonus is also deal killing. This market is extremely tough
You should also try targeting non-traditional candidates like ex-big law folks who took a little break from the burnout. Maybe a little older crowd but would certainly appreciate the lifestyle & flexibility.
Cravath at what level? 1st year?
Now, through forever
This 60% Cravath scale comp include bonus?
🙌 Thanks to everyone on this thread that provided feedback. We've refreshed our job post based on what we learned. Here are the headlines:
-Base salary at 60% of Cravath scale (seeking 5th years and above)
-Incentive-based bonuses in the target range of $10k-$50k, with the opportunity to go much higher
-Firm commitment to work-life balance. We expect attorneys to work (not bill) about 40-45 hours per week. In our experience, this translates to 20-25 billable hours per week, but we don't want our attorneys focused on billings.
If you're interested in pursuing this, the live post is here: https://angel.co/l/2uWub5