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Hi fishes,
Need your opinion.
Working for Wipro as azure data engineer in Spark, Hive, Azure ADF, ADB etc.
Current CTC: 17.5 LPA
Total YOE: 11 years
Relevant exp in big data: 6 yrs
Relevant exp in Azure: 2+ yrs
Got offer from Atos of 26.4 LPA. Is this a good offer? or Shall I search other job at 30+ LPA?
Getting calls from some product companies like JPMorgan Chase Chubb. How much can I expect from these product companies?
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PwC does not have up or out (in the sense it’s not as aggressive, you can stay at the same level for upto 4/5 years) after that you ll getting kicked out surely.
S& has an up and out but also S& has really high attrition. Folks from S& have so many better and more exit options vs PwC.
Chief
No, we definitely fire you. We don’t call it that because like most firms we try to make a distinction in language between firing people (“you committed expense fraud, you’re fired”) and counseling out (“there’s no path forward for you, time to find a new opportunity“) but that’s an informal distinction. When you get told it’s time to go we tell you to pack your bags and go. The conversation you are describing is one that happens before that. No one should ever be surprised by that result.
Source: am an S& partner
Up or out is a dumb idea. It was always dumb. It did nothing to improve quality. In fact hurt quality. Any firm still practicing it needs a consultant to come in and explain how dumb it has always been.
Source. My best sc has been an sc for 32 years and is happy with his career and experiences. He has asked not to get promoted. Does not want to be a manager. He got an hr exception in salary bands (another dumb idea) 20 years ago and is paid like a low level SM. He does freaking amazing analysis. He loves data. He has every template for every situation. He does his work twice as fast as the 20 something year olds. He is rock star and Up or outing him would have been dumb. It is always dumb.
You know what measure I would like to compare? Ey3 he is one of the highest margin makers on my teams. You must work under the old hours and levels model. I use fixed price and capability price and value based billing. I will not sell time and materials unless there is visibility to a longer term gig at the other models. In fact I have not exposed a rate in almost five years.
I provide a service to my clients. Not people. I provide solutions and results. The people are my problem, not the clients. I don’t work at a staffing firm providing staff augmentation.
Thus in getting actual work done and Billings of value or services he is highly efficient and profitable.
Perhaps you should try to figure out why I consistently get project bathing in the 70s and sometimes 80s while providing a lower priced service to my clients than you guys. Could I be we get paid for results and those can do it as fast as possible and get the same money regardless?
You keep assigning your Junior resources and taking forever and I’ll just get it done quickly and make more money. Before here I worked at a boutique where at the time I was the most Junior person with 12 years experience. Most projects has staff with average experience levels of around 20. It was fun. We kicked butt. Everyone knew what they were doing. I brought that model with me and mostly have been able to keep it.
Rising Star
Big 4 (the companies you tagged) doesnt have an up or out culture.
Coming from exp of 2 peers B4s, Up or Out is clearly NOT the norm in any of service lines including strategy at B4s. That's prevalent across MBB/ EYP/ Strategy& / ATK and the likes... 🥂
To add more perspective, I operate with two partners day in and out, one made it 10 while the other at 17! Both homegrown partners
I always thought McKinsey did this because they wanted to fill all the large corporations with ex-McK people who might hire them
You are not wrong
Up and out in my dept means being told you’re not cut out for leadership therefore won’t be promoted to the next level, then it’s your choice to leave or not.
Ugh partner 1. You’re being so pedantic. What bee got in your bonnet this morning?
Big 4 doesn't have up of out - why bother going through thousands of hours of performance reviews! Just mass layoffs every couple of years does the trick
It’s similar to a performance plan. Basically if you aren’t making any progress or are consistently not ready for promotion, you’re told to find a different role in the company or you’ll be let go.
Thanks SM1
Chief
The question you keep asking is about how they communicate the out part.
It’s not a mystery. They tell you to leave. Details depend on the firm and how they do their talent management but someone sits you down and says the firm doesn’t see a path forward for you, and it’s time for you to go find a new job.
Chief
It can be stressful for sure. I’ve been on the receiving end of that conversation and it sucks.
I think the concept of “up and out” is applicable to all consulting. You either are moving “up” and taking on more responsibilities, new jobs, new skills, or you’re “out” of the job/firm. Some firms are more structured/formalized (if your teams are not saying you’re promotion ready after two years at the role, then you’re out by some means of encouraged to interview, coached out, PIP, etc). But the concept anyway is compare it to a staff IT or staff HR role at a company. Many companies you could be in the same role for years and years - you don’t have to move up to keep your job.
Ignore me. Think partner1 got to what you were asking
Usually people get annoyed they didn’t get promoted and leave for a promotion else where.
I mean why would you stay making less it’s a job.
D puts you on PIP if one person gives you a bad snapshot :) so if you are in the lowermost bucket I think that its a bye bye
It's a performance watch kind of thing, basically your coach will have to report on your progress from time to time to get you out of PIP. I think that people under the PIP bucket would be the first in line to go if the company is laying people off. And anyone can get a PIP, no matter how new you are at the firm. I know analysts who got it on their first projects and they were like...2 or 3 months into the firm?
They don’t really make your life miserable but “coaching” typically happens and leadership makes it clear to start looking elsewhere. Most consultants want to keep moving up or have an exit to industry planned so I haven’t really seen it be an issue. It’s also not typically as aggressive as a fixed schedule so you can add a year or two each level and be fine but no firm wants a 10 year associate.
It’s all about money. The higher your level the more than can charge the client per hour. Additionally, in theory, the more higher level consultants the more capacity for the firm to take on more clients.
How is that a different thing? I answered the question then added root cause.
Of course you need more at every level. You’re saying that as if you're only promoting at one level. But besides up and out (aka promoting every year at every level), firms are constantly hiring new associates. The team structure is just fine.