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Hi I run a podcast called The Lawtrepreneur Briefing that explores what's makes a modern lawyer modern. We do this by having conversations with people driving the transformation of the legal profession.
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My crappy public schools never taught me study skills. So the first 2 years of college (HYS) were rough and my GPA reflected that. The LSAT definitely gave me the chance to go to a higher ranked school than I could have gotten into with GPA alone.
And, I’ll add that that T-14 school got me my BL job, allowing me to pay off both my undergrad and law school loans. So, in my case (and recognizing that others who are not great at standardized test-taking may feel differently), the LSAT helped get me to a really comfortable place that 10 years ago I couldn’t imagine I’d be in.
I fell in the later category. If I hadn't taken and done well on the LSAT there's no way I would have gotten into the school I wanted to. It was crazy expensive, but my parents knew if I stuck with it it would pay off, and so far it's looking like they'll be right. If I can pay off my student loans.
My guess is that both are true. POC generally perform worst in this test but there are individuals who are able to navigate the test well and get a high score. This helps level the playing field against wealthier, whiter counterparts who can afford to pad their resume with unpaid internships or connection-obtained jobs even if they can’t perform well in the test (confirming the old saying of having to work twice as hard to get just as far).
My biggest issue with removing the LSAT is that they are not really replacing it with any other vehicle to help candidates who didn’t go to big name undergrads or have funds to pad their resume be competitive when applying. The negative effects may be compounded if affirmative actions is deemed unconstitutional next year.
I agree with AA1. The LSAT was my saving grace because my GPA and school certainly weren't great.
Yes- I could have benefited even more if I'd known how important the test was and taken prep courses to pump it up further.
More privileged students may take that extra prep step more frequently. But it was still helpful to me without having any prep.
I had a decent undergrad gpa. But I got a very high lsat. So I paid nothing for t14 and went to biglaw. I had a hard major in undergrad but I don’t think people weigh that in the way they should. So since I felt like the lsat was a masterable test it worked for me.
Statistically students from high income families tend to get higher scores and therefore it disproportionately is a disadvantage to those who didn’t go to private colleges and could afford the test prep. Also it is a crappy test for law school and a gpa shows more about a student than one tricky test. Reservations the history of these standardized tests and it looks like they were made to exclude instead of include.
Rising Star
saying that you like a system because it benefited you, and a small handful of people, is not a good reason to keep an arbitrary, gatekeeping exam.
i was explicitly told I would be admitted in so many schools if i raised my LSAT score. that's so dumb to evaluate a person's life and worthiness upon a single test.
I think it helps poc. I got into a great law school without colorful experience just with a good gpa and 17x lsat score
Rising Star
that's wonderful that it helped YOU. it doesn't help majority of POC. that's the problem.
When I was preparing for my LSAT, I got a tutor after not scoring well on my practice exam. The tutor was $200/hr. It helped a lot, but I know that there are many young black aspiring lawyers that cannot afford a tutor. They are working at a disadvantage when their competitors have abundant resources.
How many points did your score improve by after tutoring?
Nope
The LSAT sucks but it's a very learnable test, except for - arguably - reading comp. It is the one metric that is uniform across all applicants and so an objectively good score really can propel you into a top-tier law school. It's worth the time and investment to do very well on it (i.e., 165+).
The LSAT does suck. Its no measure of how good you will be as an attorney and its super expensive. I think the whole thing is a big scam if I am being honest.
LSAT would not 100% determine your capability but it is a good test. I also didn't do very good when I took it but thankfully I passed. The grit and the commitment in law school would surely help you get through it.
The LSAT saved me as well.
I’m super Pro LSAT because I think it’s actually easier than most people believe.
The LSAT is a skill, not a talent. Almost anyone can do well on it. Most people don’t do well because they don’t prepare for it properly. It’s an extremely learnable test that only requires diligence and patience to get good at. They literally repeat the same questions year after year and just change the names/words. Once you’ve done enough practice tests and reviewed the answers, you can basically answer any question they throw at you because it’s the same shit over and over.
Lots of people think you need the expensive tutors and classes, and I agree that those can be incredibly helpful. But really what you need is the discipline to study properly for the test. The information to do well on the LSAT that you’d get from those expensive courses is basically all included in the powerscore books. People pay testmasters or blueprint to keep them disciplined and on schedule.
I think a lot of people end up getting psyched out by the LSAT when often it can be a test that almost directly ends up putting money into your pocket in the form of scholarships and future jobs.
Law schools should make applications lsat optional to make sure people aren’t discriminated against based on one BS test.
Agreed, I don't really think the LSAT adds anything and nor have I ever felt like I need to refer back to it. It's useless IMO
I think it’s gatekeeping. I got into a program in undergrad that helped students of color study for the LSAT. We got free Kaplan prep materials and had a Kaplan tutor that we could call on whenever we needed. But the study sessions went for hours and I couldn’t have done it while working. If I wasn’t living at my moms house for the summer, I would’ve really struggled. My score went up like 20 points after using the program. They stopped doing the program two years later and I always think of all the POC students that are missing out now.
The lsat is the best predictor of 1L grades, but it’s not a great predictor. From what I recall, it explains about 16% of 1L grade outcomes, better than GPA or anything else, but still not that amazing.
But I think the real benefit of the lsat comes from forcing most students to learn and master logical reasoning. Recognizing logical fallacies, forming arguments based in logic, and identifying and examining the flaws in someone else’s argument are all skills I use every day as an attorney and studying for and doing well on the LSAT is a big reason for why I’m able to do those things well. I suspect that’s true for many other attorneys as well.
POC (especially first gen) generally aren’t in the know and don’t know how to game the test. It’s something anyone is able to master, and if you master it you go to a t-14 and get big law.
but standardized testing is generally unfair, especially for first gen POC. so I’m not sure where I stand. honestly the whole institution of law school and prestige associated with it comes from a racist, classist space. not sure there’s any remediating it