Serious question on what vacation means in the BigLaw world

News flash life is not about who could work the hardest and take the least amount of vacations or be “on call“ during their vacation. Life is about living. When you’re taking your last breath‘s of this life the last thing you will not regret is not working enough. Let’s all start to have some respect for our own real lives and give ourselves permission to really live and take the damn vacation unplugged. We are not machines. The emails and phone calls are not life or death. We are not doctors. Find coverage. And go. Trust your coverage. The world of law will still be there when you arrive. The partner will survive. Remember he makes five times more than you so he’ll be just fine.

I’m at a V5, litigation 3rd year. Every vacation I’ve taken has been completely respected and I haven’t had to work. I’ve taken 1, 2 week vacations. And even took a month for my wedding/honeymoon. Not only has no one ever said a word to me disapprovingly, but I’ve been encouraged by my supervisors (senior associates and partners alike) to take vacation and to not be bothered. That said, I always check my email when I’m on vacation, and I’m above pace by 200 hours this year despite taking ~2 months worth of vacation this year, so I work a lot and have developed good rapport with my supervisors.

Vacation means 1) away from the office; and 2) not working. 1) without 2) is remote work; 2) without 1) is called being a senior partner.

There is no industry specific definition for vacation.

Lawyers just do not take vacation because we are generally pushovers who lack boundaries to stand up to partners and clients. We also have horrible self esteem and believe we have no intrinsic value and that all of our self worth comes from serving others or making the firm money.

To me it means you’re still on call and you’d better make up those hours when you’re back. I’d love to actually unplug for a solid week, but that’s not our life.

I am a young(ish) partner (40) at am AmLaw 20 firm. I’m not far removed from being an associate in the trenches and I really strive to cultivate strong relationships with all of the associates who work with me. I have an associate who takes a vacation every single year between Dec 18 thru Jan 2. Every single year. FYI I’m a deal lawyer so we often have deals closing, etc right before the new year.

This associate will tell me they are “unavailable” and are firm in not even logging in after hours, etc. to help with work. When I was an associate, I canceled more vacations than I can remember and even when I did go, I often had to log back in or work pool side, etc. I never once had the luxury to say “sorry I’m unavailable for the next 2.5 weeks”. The rigidity is what bothers me. I’m not trying to be a boomer (I’m not), but has the market changed that much that the expectation is now no work while on vacation? I would absolutely be understanding if someone was sick, or had family that was sick or other family emergency, a wedding, etc. But this is a recurring annual vacation with zero flexibility.

Welcome thoughts on this.

Means not going to the office and maybe not having your laptop with you. Means being available on your phone for calls/IM and checking your e-mail maybe daily, unless you’re going on an African safari

I'm a junior associate, and I only take long weekend breaks. I'm able to unplug for those, and it's enough for me. I actually tried to take my first real vacation this year during the work week, but I ended up working the entire time.

I’m a senior-ish associate in M&A, which i imagine is about as bad as anything for inability to disappear at the wrong time, and I have very little control over when that wrong time hits. But I still travel a lot (3-4 weeks of real vacation + holidays + several 4-day weekends for weddings and such).

I could probably get coverage, but have only done it once in my career (honeymoon) when I was more junior. All my other vacations are working vacations and I’m fine with that trade - usually it means 2-3 hours of email each morning and dialing in to a handful of calls during the week that I’m really needed on. If a deal isn’t signing, clients usually don’t even notice. But I’ve also pulled all-nighters from hotel conference centers in foreign countries, and that is its own special kind of hell (in hindsight obviously should have moved that trip, but oh well).

I think the associate described by OP is being pretty ridiculous to refuse to be available at least by iPhone and such. If that’s all the vacation they take and they’re otherwise a good associate, I think I’d live with it though.

To be fair, I think part of it is the fact that I haven’t taken a vacation in over 3 years (not one single day off other than a Friday or Monday sandwiched around a weekend but even then it’s often when I’m traveling for work to a nice city and tack on a day to spend it with the misses somewhere other than home.

I also am of the mindset that as a partner, if a client comes to me with a deal on December 23 (actually happened today) I can’t just tell the client “sorry I’m on vacation and won’t be available at all for even a call until Jan 3”. That doesn’t fly in our profession but I really do strive to respect other people’s time off. And yes I realize I need to take some time for myself too.

Just like all the associates and partners. Technology support is never allowed to “disconnect”. I have worked on FMLA and have also cancelled more vacations that I can count.

This is not complicated. Vacation means the same thing in and out of big law. Some people just don’t take vacations for various reasons, that’s all. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Considering everyone's varied opinions on this- the only solution seems to be national laws that limit employer outreach to employees outside prescribed work hours OR at the very least during vacation. Would make the associate and partner/firm/client share responsibility in getting a matter staffed over someone’s vacation.

That would establish work hours expectations at all firms, client expectations, etc. stiff penalties for violations by firms.

Obviously exceptions for trials, etc. In the deal context, where I work, it would merely mean the deal sign and close dates would be extended or matters would be staffed a bit differently.

Something like right to disconnect laws in Germany but for vacation.

As a major part of our litigation department I do my best to front load my work schedule so any attorney I work with can actually try to take a vacation. We (I) work to make sure all deadlines are met early so nothing is pending before they leave. Inevitably something comes up that I need guidance to handle without being subjected to UPL. Because of my willingness to try and offer my attorneys a relaxing and true vacation I am usually rewarded with the same courtesy.

Mind you this has only worked at the firm I currently work. I worked for a firm who informed me I could not go to my brother's wedding when I gave them 6 months notice... Needless to say I didn't last the next 6 months there.

I hope you surround yourself with supportive and competent staff who help make sure you get the time off needed to grow and run a lucrative legal profession.

A lot of good thoughts here. Big law 50 firm. Vacay means one week during which you can expect to work 2 full days of the 9. (5 weekdays & 4 weekend). It’s a tough job. A colleague once said to me sarcastically that it must be that your clients can’t along for a week without you. My response was that I didn’t want them to figure out that they could. Competition for top notch clients is fairly fierce.

I’m a juniorish equity partner at a large boutique. If you are someone that needs to totally unplug, I’d suggest you figure out if your practice is at all tied to the calendar year. For example, I’ve found that clients essentially disappear during the first two weeks of August and the week between Christmas and the New Year. In law, it seems unavoidable that you have to check your email a few times a day and that there will still be one or two calls a week that can’t be avoided, but you can still have a great vacation and come across as a team player by budgeting a half hour in the morning and a half hour before starting the evening for writing longer responses, and scheduling calls for the parts of the day that you’d have to be in the car for or waiting around somewhere. I’m always available, but can generally enjoy the time I take off.

Y’all need to set boundaries but also realize your profession. The only options aren’t “work constantly on vacation or never take it” and “unplug and don’t check email.”

Be on vacation. Take two weeks off. Bring your computer. Check your emails occasionally. Be able to get on emergency calls or turn documents rarely.

I think I would cap a totally unplugged vacation at a week. Other than that you need to have an hour or so window to check emails and respond to messages every day beyond that

Working in a sunny place and way less than I typically do. I never “stop” working (be honest, if you were on vacation and met a GC of a major company, you would not be like “naw, no biz dev today, I’m on vacation”) . So I’m always somewhat on, but I also know how to relax quickly and have a good time.

Several one-week vacations over the course of the year is kind of the norm for us

A junior here in Canadian biglaw - took a few days off and worked about 10 hours over them remotely. I wish it wasn’t this way but if a partner, senior associate or client is relying on you, they will reach out regardless. It is fundamentally a service industry and if I don’t reply, someone else will. Still trying to figure out this whole work life thing, that’s for sure.